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.ce Copyright (C) Homer Wilson Smith
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Date:         Mon, 27 Mar 89 00:45:56 EST
From:         "Homer W. Smith" 
Subject:      Re: Research, data, and supporting evidence.
To:           Adore-l list 
In-Reply-To:  Message of Thu, 23 Mar 89 15:57:52 EST from 

>(Read ENTIRELY before responding please...)
>
>I can only speak for myself, but it takes more than a gut feeling
>before I feel I am certain about an idea.

     The hidden accusation here is that some people (me) attain
a certainty on some subjects from mere gut feelings.
>
     Some Skeptics do this kind of insinuation a lot.  Since they
are incapable, by their own statement, of certainty on any
subject at any time including their own existance, they always
charge anyone who has attained true certainty on something with
jumping to conclusions.

     Your basic skeptic (not McCabe, but others) has the a priori
assumption that certainty on any important subject is not attainable,
which is why they are a skeptic in the first place.  It is one thing
to be in doubt about your Immortality or Responsibility, it is quite
another to be a professional skeptic.

     The reason is that serious LOOKING will end true doubt after not
too many years of looking.  If after many many years though you still
have a skeptic operating you can be sure that no LOOKING was taking
place.

     The truth is there for anyone to see, IF you look in the right place.
That right place is Responsibility for Irresponsibility.

     I know I am pontificating, but I am just calling the stuff as
I see it.  No claim to CERTAINTY is being made here.  When I claim
to certainty I say so in that many words, 'I am perfectly certain that...'

     Everything else is just calling the shots as I think they probably
are.  You know, the hardest piece of evidence against personal immortality,
Total Responsibility, and Dream Time, is all these people who are SURE
they are gonna die, had nothing to do with it and will smell like
carrion after it is over.

     The worm food types are the hardest to explain away.  I mean if
we really ARE Immortal Omni Sovereign beings, why the hell would
we ever fool ourselves into thinking otherwise, and why the hell
would it even be possible in the first place?  I mean reality
must have seen us coming.  It must have known that we would WANT
to throw our Godhood out the window for a while, for a thrill, and
so made sure it was possible.

     Strange, no?

     Why not just have a universe where we are Gods and thats it?

     Why have this horrible ability to be dead meat?!

>The idea, "we are all purely physical beings" rings true to me.
>However, I would much rather believe that we actually do have souls,
>that we are immortal, and that we have created this entire "reality".
>
     You do not HAVE a soul.  You ARE a soul.  You will also notice
that skeptics always use the word BELIEVE.  They never say 'I know',
or even 'I would rather know'.  They say 'I would rather BELIEVE'.

     Belief is for losers.  Those who can not know.
     Disbelief is for those who do not want to know.
     Certainty is for those who would operate.

     If you are not certain of something, that is fine.
     Then you KNOW that you DON'T KNOW.  There is still a CERTAINTY.
     CERTAINTY of UNCERTAINTY.  THAT is personal integrity.

     Whether you know or not, there is always a CERTAINTY involved.

     Consciousness IS CERTAINTY.

     But when you start talking about belief, you are talking about
being lost forever for free in the sea of delusion.

>I like that idea so much that I'm experimenting and searching for
>the earth-moving experiences others talk about.  But I still don't
>think it is true yet.  Maybe it's because I haven't experienced those
>things yet.  Maybe it's because it's all wishful thinking.

     Why do you believe that the world is other than you WANT IT?

     Why would you believe that a universe could create a creature
that was unhappy with the way the universe was?  Isn't this a kind
of philosophical morbidity?

     If you start off with the assumption (not a certainty) that
a universe COULD NOT create a creature that was dissatisfied with
that universe, then the very fact that you are dissatisfied with the
meatball theory means it is 1) not true, and 2) created by you to
give you something you did not want, because you wanted THAT.

>
>I already know what kind of argument I'm going to receive for this.
>"You are just caught up in the meatball Dust-in-the-wind dream you have
>created for yourself."
>
>Why is it that my feelings, those which ring true for me, are
>wrong?

     Lots of bells ring.  Some ring better than others.
Maybe you haven't yet heard a bell ring better than the one you have.

     For example the idea that 'God made us' is one bell that rings
true for many.

     The idea that 'God did not make us, but we are the product
of the physical universe' is a bell that rings true for others.

     The idea that 'The world is our dream and there is no God or
physical universe other than what we virtualize' rings true
for others.

     You have NO evidence that there is a physical universe.
You are like the dreamer who can not realize that he is dreaming
becase the dream is too real.   But surely there is not a physical
universe in your night time dreams.  Neither is there now.

     Just because you SEE space does not mean there IS space.

     Your every peice of evidence about the physical universe is
taken from your conscious picture.  CONSCIOUSNESS is what you are
certain of.  Everything else is a theory to explain the
consistency and horror of your conscious experience.

     An infinitely large, dead, cold, uncaring universe OUT THERE,
that made me and will destroy me and doesnt give a thwarp about me, fits
the bill just fine no?

     No conscious, sentient, intelligent, caring being would have
created this place, right?

     Well it would be unfair to create it FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO LIVE IN
AND SUFFER, but it might be an interesting joy ride to throw ONESELF into.
Especially if one were an infinite almighty powerful GOD.

     The idea of an INFINITE number of INFINITE GODS is just too much
for some.  But it IS the DESIRABLE theory, no?  And it would be FAIR,
if these Gods created a nightmare they threw THEMSELVES into, no?

     Now you might say, 'well I don't FEEL like a God'.  That's because
you ARE a God, asshole, and you can do some amazing stuff to yourself.
And in fact it is ONLY TO YOURSELF that you can do anything at all.

     This idea that there is a God who can do stuff to OTHERS is
the Root Rot of the matter.

It's a very rare religion that doesn't claim to have an en-
>lightened few who know what's REALLY going on.  I know there are people
>who blindly accept the religion thrust on them, but there ARE people
>out there who actually did think a LOT about things before accepting
>a religion.  Are they wrong too?

     Most religions in the world says you are SPIRIT, not MATTER.
They say you exist independant of matter and a few go so far
to say that matter is maya, illusion.

     I would say all the religions are right, not wrong.

     They do leave out the point of responsibility though.

     They blame it all on God.  That makes them wrong.

     But who knows what the original masters really said.

     You of all people should know better than to take the word
of a BOOK found on Earth to tell you the truth about anything,
let alone what some enlightened master said.

     If you want the words of the masters you will have to either
go to them or to the dusty sections of your library where NO ONE
goes.  You wont find it in your Chruch pews.

     If you go to the dusty sections of your library you will find
they all say the same thing.  You are a dreamball and you chose.
They all tell you standard religion USED to say the same thing but it was
altered by the greedy few to keep the rest of the world down.
Of course the rest of the world had to be pretty stupid to fall
for it, so they deserve what they get.

     I have read it a million times in a million books.

     It got boring after a while.

     I wanted to EXPERIENCE it for myself.

>It takes more than a couple books to convince me as well.  That's one
>reason why I'm not a Christian.  The entire faith is based on one
>very improbable book -- a book that has an enormous ratio of BS to
>content for that matter.
>
>Homer, I wanted to know how YOU knew these things that we don't.
>Most of your postings are riddled with statements like "God is
>this, God does that, we are all such-and-such," but you never
>tell us where you found this knowledge.  It doesn't sound like
>you've based your philosophy entirely from books -- in fact you hint at
>personal experiences very often.
>
>I can see how an out-of-body experience would be an extremely
>influential force driving your philosophy.  It's something I hope
>to encounter some day.  But it's unbelievably frustrating to read
>your articles, which frequently contain blanket statements on
>The Way It Is, when you NEVER state how you came to those conclusions!

     In the first place, getting out of one's body is insignificant
compared to exteriorizing from space and time totally.   THEN you get
some first hand knowledge of Divinity.  I am told.

     What do you want me to say?  I have SEEN ETERNITY and it is laughing?
What could I possibly SAY to you about what ever experiences I have had
that would increase the probability in YOUR mind that it is true?

     There is NOTHING I can convey to you that will PROVE anything.
I can only tell you what I have seen, how I got there, and if you see it,
you will know too.

     Maybe if you give me some idea of what you want to hear from me
I might be able to come up with something.

     You know getting out of a body does not prove much in the way
of divinity.  Experiencing your CHOICE to be here does.

     But memory is memory.  My telling you that I REMEMBER something
is going to help you BELIEVE I am right?  I sure hope not.

     YOU must remember, and beable to re operate the fall.  Then you
will know the fall and the rise.

     I am trying to show you HOW to know.  Re operate NOT knowing.
Then you can know for sure for yourself.  Only then have I proven
anything and made sure no one fell for believing me because I sounded
so 'knowledgeable.'

     You know, people will following anything
that moves, especially if it seems to have some wisdom or higher
experience.  This is very dangerous, because the followers want
to have the benefits of this wisdom but not the dangers of attaining it
for themselves.

     Thus they follow the wise one as a surrogate.  Eventually
they crucify Him. They hate him for not putting discipline in on them.
They hate him for ALLOWING them to use him.

     It is also not all so cut and dried.  There is a whole world of
unspeakable BEAUTY and UGLY out there.  I can not prove this to you,
without you seeing it for yourself.

     Most of you who have done serious drugs know that there is
a kind of beauty called 'candyland'.

     Above that there is a kind of beauty called 'Stardrive'.

     Above that is something called 'Excaliper Beauty'.

     Prove it?  I can't.

     It is true that when and if you get out of your body (by practicing
geting IN!) or you begin to remember forgetting your past 20 billion
years or more, you will attain a measure of certainty that you are immortal and
a dream ball.  But it has to come from you.  Not me.

     Maybe I am wrong.  Maybe there is something I could say that
would give you BELIEF I am right, maybe just to assuage your worried
soul about your fate, but until YOU experience something it will always
be you BELIEVING in someone else experiencing something.  That is worse
than reading a book, don't you agree?

>
>This is not a flame!  I just feel like a researcher who, after long
>months of waiting for a back-ordered experimental report, opens it up
>only to find everything but the conclusion censored out!  I understand
>the points you make, but a conclusion alone isn't worth a whole lot.
>In fact, I'd even go so far as to place unsupported generalizations in
>with the "Zero Content" lot.

     Yeah but you would be wrong.  And you should wake up to this.

     I am telling you what you will find when you find it.  I am
not proving to you THAT I found it myself.

     I AM however telling you HOW to find it for yourself.

     The way out is the way in.  If you want to know some hidden truth,
assume you once knew it and chose to forget it, then practice
choosing to forget it more.

     It will come back.

     But look, this aint trivial.  You have forgotten stuff
you never knew you knew.  You have forgotten pain and suffering that
would turn your body's stomach inside out.

     You have played the game of death on yourself.

     And you want proof?

     Take it easy. Be willing to not know.  This NEED to know,
is unwillingness to be what you created the in first place,
an asshole in deep shit.  (ALL of us.)

     This 'the way in is the way out' bit is
more content than anyone has ever said to you about
anything in your entire life.  It wont seem like much until it
works, but it wont work until YOU DO IT, and until YOU DO IT RIGHT.

     That may be 5 or 6 years of your personal experimentation down
the line, but then once you win, YOU will have put up with all the
skeptics complaining about 'pontification' and lack of proof.

     I can't wait.
>
>An OBE in itself is not enough to support your statements.  That
>is, unless you've done something that you aren't letting on to.
>Did you talk to God directly?  Did you stumble upon some extra-dimensional
>library of knowledge?  Just let us know the research behind your
>results!

     In the first place there is one whole hell of a lot I am not
letting on to.  I guess I should just say that up front.

     But thats the way it is going to be.

     I am not trying to play 'wiser than thou', but look, if
I told you I had a personal visitation from Angels of God
last night, you would think I was losing it, right?

     Even if it were true.  So you can bet I wouldn't let
on to anything that was way beyond the acceptance level
of the people I am talking to.

     By the way, I have never had a visitation from anyone, but
if I had I wouldn't tell you.

     But that wont stop me from letting you know everything there is
that I know about HOW to get all the information yourself.

     Even visitations from Angels if you want them.  But I have the
feeling that most people that have Angels visit them are
hallucinating hallucinations rather than real encounters with
free beings.

     No free being in their right mind would put a human in the
position of having such an experience that he could not easily
share with others.  It would drive him nuts.  If YOU were visited
by a ghost tomorrow, who would YOU tell.

     Angels know this.  So they don't violate peoples space
with visitations and stuff unless they are ready for it, or
can do it themselves.

     Nuclear powers do not convort with non nuclear powers on a
nuclear basis.  Get it?


     The comments about God, etc, should be taken with a grain of salt.

     The comments about the Dream Time should be taken in all seriousness.

     As for the God bit, the THEORY of responsibility demands that He
did not make us, but that all souls are Omni Sovereign independant beings
who chose to create and enter a universe together.

     Further there is the unsupported statement that what exists is
SOURCE and SOULS, and that SOURCE is not a soul and can do nothing on its own,
but is the ground from which SOULS can do things.

     Sourcers cast sourcery from source.

     Thus if there IS a soul playing GOD of this particular universe,
and I think there is, then that God is just another soul.  Thus he
is just like me and thee in all important respects.

     I would not create a universe where in souls went to hell forever
for any reason, so neither did this God.

     Besides, no one would jump into such a game with such a risk.

     So why would any God create such a game if no one would be willing
to visit it?

     To believe in Hell for ever, you have to believe in unwilling souls.
But this denies the THEORY of Responsibility.

     To find out about God, start with the THEORY of RESPONSIBILITY
and study your own heart.

 Homer W. Smith      Adore-l list         3/27/89*Research, data, and supportin