.ll 72
.fo off
.co on 
.ce ((Editor's comments in double parenthesis - Homer))
.ce ADR - 283
.ce Copyright (C) Homer Wilson Smith
.ce Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes
======================================================================== 200
Date:         Fri, 23 Jun 1989 03:26:50 EDT
From:         Homer 
Subject:      Re: More stuff
To:           MCCABE%MTUS5.BITNET@CORNELLC.ccs.cornell.edu,
In-Reply-To:  Your message of 25 Feb 89 14:52 EST

>   I think I rambled on about different things too long.  My point was
>simply to say there are many different questions that people waste time
>asking themselves.  Sure, if we don't exist, that would be important,
>but it's something we can never know.

    We can never know if we exist?

>In other words, even if we don't exist, I'm still gonna try to make it
>to work on time tomorrow.

     No comment.

>   By the way, I definately believe we exist.

    But it is only a belief, right.  Not a certainty?

>What I mean by "putting your faith behind something", I didn't mean
>believing it without reason.  What I meant is, "When do people finally
>make up their minds and gain certainty for any given philosophy?"

     Certainty or Conviction?

     I know an awful lot of people with conviction.  They claim
it is a certainty but it cant be because it is wrong.

>   I can't imagine having any certainty about the Christian beliefs.
>I haven't experienced anything to disprove the materialists.  Are you
>ruling out the possibility that your trips through walls weren't just
>good imagination, and a strong desire to support the attractive idea
>that such things are possible?

     We have discussed the matter of exteriorization at great length
so we need not rehash it here.

     However I should add that although I HAVE been out of my body,
it has not been a fully self determined exit with the resultant
ability to SEE and travel where I will.

     This baby kind of ext is very hard to prove because it does
not last long enough and you tend to doubt it yourself even after
it happens.

    However a fully self determined ext would result in enormous
mobility and stability that could be proven quite easily.

    As experiments that would prove such a thing have already
been discussed it only awaits the opportunity to use them once
such an ext is achieved by someone willing to let on that
they can do it.  Not me.  Except possibly in the presence of other
good friends who can also do it.

>   If so, then let me know.  THAT is exactly what would make me believe.
>THAT is what I would have to do to believe it!  Listen to me, I really
>**want** to believe in a universe like that, and I'm looking, but I'm
>worried.  I'm worried that my strong desire to believe will slowly make
>me believe, even with an absence of support.

     Yes yes I understand.  The desire for Immortality is strong,
and healthy.  But I submit that the process of 'believing' from
false evidence has already happened in your belief about the existance
of the external physical universe and death.

     You can conquer the fear of believing in Immortality before it is
due by conquering your belief in Matter Energy Space and Time before
IT is due.

Without having ever left
>my own body, it's hard for me to rule out the possiblity that it's just
>wishful thinking on your part.  (Please, don't misunderstand me.  I don't
>mean that as any attack on you...  Remember how you felt before you
>believed what you do now?)

    I thought that Immortality was a lot of hogwash until someone
started talking about the world being a dream.  I always knew it
could not be proven to be real, but I never took it seriously
that it might be a dream until someone else said it was.

     Then I looked at the idea and my non evidence that it is NOT
a dream, and things started happening.  Too fast I might add.

It is easy to prove you are out of your body.
>You can prove it to anyone you wish.
>But they will try to enslave you for their ends.
>>> We CHOSE and had a hand in making the HERE to be.  Be sure you
>>> will doubt it.  But CAUSE yourself to doubt it, and you will
>>> remember the mechanism by which you created the veil.
>>say yourself, "everyone wants to be immortal."  Again, could this
>>desire be so strong that we invent the concept of reincarnation
>>because it makes us feel so good?

    does it make us feel so good?  Frankly I think it scares the living
daylights out of us.  To consider an Eternity of birth after birth
after birth of being Born on some planet out of our control would
be a Hell of a sort.  Thus saying that people believe in reincarnation
because it feels good, is a lie.  It takes great courage and confront
to even suspect it might be true let alone try to prove it.

     It is belief in death that makes us feel good.

The skeptic always tries to find
>>support for his opinions.  What proof is there that your system is

    Jim and I have come a long ways since this posting between us,
this posting predates ADORE-L.  Thus we have both agreed that
there are many experiments that HE could design to prove that I
was out of my body and visa versa.

>     The skeptic is a very dumb sort of fellow and a very frightened
>sort of fellow.  He spends all of this time saying PROVE it, but then
>refuses to do the experiments.  There are a million experiments that
>you can think up to prove that the world is a dream, but it takes
>courage and confront to admit that you are a God.  Much safer being
>a skeptic to whom NOTHING can ever be proven at all.
>You have lived a million lifetimes, commited murder and mayhem, been
>murdered and mayhemed, and even done some very good and great things.

     Probably more good than bad.  (Homer)

>Most people are skeptics because CERTAINTY SCARES THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
>out of them. They forgot their past track on purpose, and nothing is going
>to prove anything to them until they are willing to own up.
>>   But then again, the problem with believing "whatever
>>we chose is true" is that we lose our skeptical perspective!
>There is an absolute truth.  Below that is all the truths we have
>created to have a game.  People who go around choosing to believe this
>or that with out regard either to what is really true or what they themselves
>have already created are merely going more and more out of contact with
>     What I meant was that you CHOSE your ignorance, and chose to be
>ignorant that you chose your ignorance.  You did not leave much
>proof behind you to show you that you are responsible.  The only way
>to gain certainty that you chose to be ignorant is to practice doing it
>again.  If you did it before you will begin to remember.
>>Unless, of course, we have some good reason to believe this.
>>As yet, I haven't found any valid reason to put much faith
>>in this idea, and that's one reason why I enjoy talking with
>>you and others -- I'm looking for reasons.  :)
>     You keep talking about faith.  Do you expect to have faith
>in some belief when you find the answers you are looking for?
>Or will you have certainty?
>>   You are very enthusiastic in your certainty of the way
>>things are, and you do a great job of explaining your world view,
>>but I didn't find one sentence that explained WHY you hold
>>those ideas.  (I know -- I've read your notes quite a few
>>times. :)
>     I can remember my past, and I can get out of my body.  What

     This is a bit over stated but is essentially correct.  I have not
attained a stable exteriorization, certainly not long enough to
do any experiments even to myself.

     And as for remembering my past, this is true, but it goes
as fast as memories of a dream, once it comes and is seen.

     My memory is still better described as 'wreckage' than
in good shape.  But the statement is essential true, and if my
memory WERE to get really clean, then we would be able to do
all sorts of experiments to verify the outrageous claims
being made by me and most of the Orient.

>else do you need?  There is more, but it is under wraps as it is
>not safe talking about these things.
>     The problem is getting YOU out of YOUR body and remembering
>who you are and where you have been.  The last billion years have
>been full of fun.  Once you regain contact with your self, you wont
>have these problems of faith and belief and opinion.  You will have
>certainty.  And you will see that everyone else is lost in the quagmire.
>     Homer.

     But you can help them out of the quagmire to the degree they
wish to get free.  And to the degree you have some skill and Tech
under your belt for doing so.  But presumably if you have cleared
yourself of the mess, it should be little problem helping someone else
although this is not an absolute.

 Homer               Jim                  6/23/89*More stuff