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.ce ((Editor's comments in double parenthesis - Homer))
.ce ADR - 335
.ce Copyright (C) Homer Wilson Smith
.ce Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes
======================================================================== 365
Date:         Sat, 01 Jul 89 17:07:26 EDT
From:         Homer 
Subject:      Re: Experiences
To:           Adore-l list ,
In-Reply-To:  Message of Fri, 28 Apr 89 21:42:39 EST from 

>>     The next experience that most are looking for are clear memories
>>of past places that are no longer.  Other planets, other times,
>>even home universe.  Unfortunately our memories are so chock full
>>of OTHERS memories that we often take any clear image that comes along
>>and call it ours.  Well it may belong to someone, but not necessarily
>>to YOU.  When you find your own memory in the junk heap of images,
>>you will find some serenity of self you have not known for trillenia.
>   How can one discriminate between those true memories, and those
>which aren't?  Does one type appear more real than the other?
>This is one problem I have with reincarnation work.  I am assuming
>that the real memories have a different "look and feel" to them.
>Hopefully I'll find out for myself, one of these days.  :)

    Yes, real memories have a different look and feel to them.
It is like remembering yesterday.  How do you really KNOW you
did what you did yesterday?  It could just be a hallucination, right?
Wrong.  You KNOW.  It has nothing to do with how little time went by.

     Ever been walking down a street and suddenly you get a glimpse
of a dream you had days before but did not remember until just then
because something reminded you of it?

     Where was the memory before you remembered it?  Where was it
when you first woke from the dream?  This happens to me all the time.
I might as well have not had the dream for all I know about it, until
days later a glimpse of it comes out of the blue.

     Well past life memories are gone in a similar fashion.  No hint.
Born with no hint, live with no hint, maybe even die with no hint,
but one day many lifetimes later, one pops into view for a fraction of
a second and you wonder what the hell is going on.

     As for knowing which are yours and which arn't, RECOGNITION plays
a key role.  Is it just a clear picture with you in it doing something?
Or do you recgonize it as something you have seen before.  Recognition,
deja vu, is very important to real memories, because all real memories
are 'seen agains'.

     You will also remember memories with your SELF AWARENESS in them,
moments when you were extremely introverted looking at yourself.
These are the most unmistakable.

     I have lots and lots of dreams of other schools and other times.
Not Earth, more advanced but not much, and not english, some weird
space language.

     One particular school I have 'visited' in my dreams 10 or 15 times
over the years.

     Each time I have this dream, I KNOW I am dreaming, because I can
recognize that I don't really know the school, but I have dreamed it
so many times, I have learned my way around it especially to the
pianos in the chapel, a real douzy.  I often spend hours in one dream
just wandering about the school and interacting with the other
people there.  I love the place and NOW I recognize it instantly every
time I am there, but it aint no school I have ever been to before.
My first time there was a dream in THIS life, and THAT time I had
no idea what the school was or how I had come to it.

     On the other hand I have had dreams where I 'visited' another
school just once, but THAT school I ALREADY knew my way around,
and further I had direct memories of things I had done there
in that schools actual past, not in previous dreams of that school.
For example, being a computer nerd, I had done some computer graphics
on paper and had hung them up on a bulletin board.

     Remembering this I then WENT directly down the correct hall ways
to that bulletin board to see if they were still there.  They wern't,
as the 'time' of my dream visitation was long after my having done this,
but other's graphics were there.  Clearly I had started something.

     However I did not REMEMBER the others graphics being there, I
DISCOVERED it.  I REMEMBERED MY graphics being there, and WHERE the
bulletin board was.  I also remembered a girl friend, long since gone
from those hall ways.

     Sort of like coming back to your old school 5 years later.

>>     In fact those who are green apprehentices to this subject
>>matter should keep their mouths shut until they gain some
>>understanding they can share with others.
>>     At worst they should treat those they question with some
>>respect.  It starts with knowing that there is something to know,
>>that you do not know it and that the one you are questioning
>>might know it.  It does not start with trying to denounce or debunk
>>the person in question.  THAT is for the SKEPTICS-L list and such people
>>who behave in this manner will treated with total contempt on this list.
>   Ah!  This is getting interesting.  Let me share some of my thoughts
>about Adore-L with you.  I think a list dedicated to this type of
>topic is fantastic!  But there are aspects of this group that really
>bug the crap out of me.  My biggest complaint is that the list
>owner, of all people, is VERY hostile towards those who don't share
>his opinions.

     This is not true Jim and you know it.

     Have you ever asked why sometimes I get hostile and sometimes I don't?

     Lots of people post differences with me, but I don't get hostile
in return.  Jared, bless his soul, is a clear case in point.

     I usually get hostile when people attack me out of the blue.
For example people who open their postings on ADORE-L about what
a coward I am for believing in Immortality, when clearly all
scientific evidence has debunked it long ago.  Such people get
the full wrath treatment.

     It is not just that they disagree with me, but that they
do not RESPECT MY viewpoint.

     Sometimes I get people confused with those kind of people
because of the kind of questions they ask when in reality
the present person is being very honest and truthfull, but I confuse
them with people in my past who had only evil intentions towards
the subject.

     This has happened with YOU, Jim.  I took me forever to convince
myself that YOU REALLY AND TRULY believed that there was no danger
to demonstrating publically ones out of body abilities.

     Your view seemed SO STUPID, SO CHILDISH, SO NAIVE, I could only
assume no one could be that stupid, and so figured you were
intentionally egging me on in another effort to debunk me.

     DEBUNKERS can go to hell, along with the HECKLERS.

     They have no honest intention with the truth, they only
wish to prove ABILITY false.  They are terrified of such ability
themselves, and have no intention of getting it themselves even if
it did exist, and their primary concern is that YOU not believe
any of this stuff EVEN IF THEY SUSPECT IT IS TRUE.

      Such people get the wrath treatment.

     Unfortunately some people who seem to me to be similar to these
kinds of people also get the wrath treatment and maybe an
innocent victim or two gets burned.

     I guess you have been one of them.

     Naivete can seem like evil to me.

     My fault.

     I also have little patience with litle tits for brains females
telling me how they can do anything a man can do only better.

     There are a lot of very able females in the world, many more
able than most men, but these little pip squeak females are not
one of them regardless of how high their SATs.

     I also have no patience with people who argue against
generalizations I never made.  This is a favorite with the
'men are no good' female crowd.  I get it time after time after time.
Always the same old recording, it never changes.

     I have all their letters, one of these days I am going to
stick them all together and sort the lines alphebetically, and
see how many times the same sentence shows up.

>Homer, you just don't treat people with respect.

     Jim, this is a vast generalization which is just clearly wrong.
It is true that YOU have not gotten as much respect as you probably
deserved, being the dumb sweet kid and all, (you see, if you
poke me, you get it back.)  You probably have been in a quandry
about why my wrath was always directed at you.  Probably most
of it was undeserved.

     But you know Jim, you still sort of think it would be a good
idea the day I attain a fully self determined exteriorization from
my body into the external physical universe, to go around to all
my friends and PROVE it, and perhaps go to the press and PROVE it,
and to make it generally known.

     Makes me mad just thinking about you thinking about this,
because MY view is that doing that would be the single most
danagerous thing I could ever do.  But now YOU will think I am stupid
and cowardly for having my view.  PARANOID as you wrote to Sklar.

     So you see you DEMEAN ME, by not being respectful towards MY
views, and then you get it back.

     From your very first letter to me you have been talking about
BELIEF and not CERTAINTY, always implying under your breath that
certainty is always belief, and that we can never know if we believe
because we have evidence, or if we believe because we are weak
willed sons of bitches who cant stand the thought of the grave.

     You have even stated that YOU CAN NOT KNOW IF YOU EXIST.
Thus you can not know if I exist or even hurt.  Its nice
of you to assume I do, but for me its not good enough.

     Anyhow your postings have alwas had the underflavor that
because I did not demonstrate the same level of UNCERTAINTY that you did,
that there must be something wrong with my INTEGRITY and HONESTY,
leading me to BELIEVE stuff which could only be wishfull thinking.

     This is VERY insulting, even though you are very very polite
in your expression of this view.  Thus you get the wrath treatment.

     It is very knee jerk, I must admit, but maybe you should look
to what YOU did to piss me off, rather than say, Homer can't stand
people disagreeing with him, Homer cant stand losing an arguement,
Homer doesn't LISTEN (the problem is I do), or Homer is afraid
of being spanked by his mother.

     My mother is long dead by the way, in a pit she fully
deserved to die in.

     If that is a bit hard to stomach, look to WHY I feel that way.

>   You have repeatedly called people jerks, shitheads, and assholes,
>among other things.

     My overt hostility is usually the result of their COVERT hostility,
thinly disguised by polite talk.  I call them jerks, but they
call me a coward, a true believer (possibly the worst insult you can
throw at a true seeker) and make all sorts of nasty comments because
I wont prove my position to them even though they are just sure I OWE
it to them for bringing it up in the first place.

Honestly now, is this really necessary?  Now matter
>how unconventional or obnoxious someone's views are, one should
>always be able to carry on a calm, intelligent, nonhostile discussion
>without having to resort to namecalling.

     This is YOUR view.  It is not mine.

     It is true that ones anger or hostility should not cloud
ones reason or logic or 'intelligence', but I for one like getting
mad.  It keeps me from getting ulcers.  Thus if people light
the wrath machine, they get the flame.

     I don't turn it on randomly you know, and people who
say I turn it on just because others disagree with me are sure
to get it in the face, cuz thats as false as it gets and they
know it.

>   What makes this activity even worse is that we are talking about
>a religious topic.  It's interesting that for someone who claims
>to be a bit more enlightened than most, all we hear is namecalling
>and not a mention of LOVE.

     Again this is YOUR concept about what an ENLIGHTENED (your words)
being should act like.  Since you yourself feel that YOU are the
more enlightened being, you should realize that not all people can
live up to your standards of LOVE.

     I love Chopin.  I do not love Mortals, and I do not love
people who think I am a coward for my involvement with Immortality.

     I do not OWE any one LOVE, and by your own standards I dare say
you should LOVE me even though I don't return it.

     My view, is that people deserve what they get, including me.

>   It seems that one of the first things one would learn as they
>move closer towards enlightenment is respect for life, and love for

     You are coming across sounding like a hypocrite.  You live a
protected life.  If you could see and meet everyone on the planet
and in the universe, there would be many you could not love,
until YOUR enlightenment progressed much further.

     Besides I never said I was more enlightened that others, except
possibly that I am aware that the world is a dream and they are not.

     As to how to LIKE this place and the snow balls that are in it,
that is WAY beyond me.

Even though you have a LOT of interesting things to say,
>the attitude ("I'm right, if you don't agree with me fuck off")
>you display demonstrates a serious lack of respect.  If nothing
>else, it's an unattractive, bad habit.
     It is unattractive that YOU charge me with this, when really
it has nothing to do with disagreement.

>>     Yes.  The personal thing about it is the PAIN.  The joke we
>>have played on ourselves is much like nailling ourselves
>>to cross in public view for all to see.  Once we did that to ourselves,
>>we may even have nailed a few of our friends to something too.
>   Why is it just a painful joke?  Aren't we all here to learn?

     No we are not here to learn.  This universe is a grave.  We are
here to die.  Pain serves no purpose in teaching.  There are many
better ways to learn, and pain, the way it is rigged in this universe,
teaches us all the wrong lessons.  Pain works to teach bodies, but
a spirit is the opposite of a body, and the lessons the body learns
from pain are the very lessons the spirit must UNLEARN if it is ever
to get free of this place.

>Seems like spirits wouldn't throw themselves into this game if
>it weren't fun, exciting, dramatic, and educational in the first

     Educational?  The Spirit CREATED the game.  There is nothing
new to LEARN.  THAT is just part of the game, thinking there is.
Freedom inolves UNLEARNING what has been forced on us.
Then we can CREATE something new to NOT KNOW and get stuck trying
Perhaps that is something to learn, but even that has to be
unlearned in the final hour for total freedom to be attained.

Does everything have to have this gloomy flavor?  Are
>we in the "Killing Pit" or are we in the "Learning Pit"?
     Maybe it is the Killing Pit as long as it is not the Learning Pit,
and even then sometimes it is the Killing Pit anyhow.

     But you now speak of LEARNING, but how many have been willing
to LEARN from ME?  Does this not go two ways?

     But NOOOO, they tell me I am a coward, and that I believe because
my will is weak.

     And then they tell me I should be polite to them as they
speak this drivel.

     Sorry, it will never happen.
>   When I was asking for people to talk about their experiences,
>I was doing it out of simple curiousity.  I'm searching for truth
>in my own way, and I sure as hell won't find it by accepting
>what other people tell me.

     So why have you implied that that is what I have done?
Just because I have a view that is different than yours, one which
you desire but can not find the evidence?

I wasn't asking anyone to tell me
>The Way It Is, I was asking people to tell me some of the
>interesting things they've found, and how they've found them,
>so we can all explore those ideas ourselves.  I leave the
>blind-faith attitude to the fundamentalists.

     Yes their souls get to line the Pit until the end.

>>    You WILL have the experiences you seek if you keep asking
>>questions, and keep questioning answers.
>   Great!  Then we agree!  So, please try to maintain some
>cool when we DO ask questions, eh?

     OK, but really you have try to show some sensitivity to the
DANGEROUSNESS of the subject matter.  Your Oh POSH attitude
pisses me off no end.

 Homer               Adore-l list         7/01/89*Experiences