.ll 72
.fo off
.co on 
.ce ((Editor's comments in double parenthesis - Homer))
.ce ADR - 436
.ce Copyright (C) Homer Wilson Smith
.ce Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes
======================================================================== 294
Date:         Mon, 11 Sep 89 23:59:40 EDT
From:         Homer 
Subject:      Re: A few quick questions for Homer
To:           Adore-l list 
In-Reply-To:  Message of Mon, 11 Sep 89 13:46:00 CST from 

>It is true that "both have consequences that can be predicted and then looked
>for", but there is a fundamental difference in that you repeatedly refuse to
>bring forth any proof for your view.

     My refusing to do anything is hardly a fundamental difference
in the THEORIES.

     It may be a fundamental difference between me in how I present
my theory and others in how they present their theory.

     This could very well be true.  I do not OWE anyone any proof.
If there is proof, and if I have it, one would think that I would
want to share it with others though.

     What I am waiting for is some proof that I am wrong.

     The only evidence you have for the external universe is your
consciousness of it.  I merely claim that consciousness is all there
is and that all the implied reality that we see IN our consciousness
is just a virtual projection, like a game of star trek on a multi
user computer.

     If someone would like to present some rock hard evidence that the
rock is hard, please do so.   Remembering that rocks are hard in dreams
too, or can be, I would remind everyone that experience of an
external reality does not imply certainty of an external reality.

     It is an early and much forgotten Adorian priciple that enlightenment
beings with a realization that you do not know if the external universe
is actual or virutal, and further even if it WERE actual you would never
be able to prove it as you would always be using your consciousness to
learn about it.

     It continues to say that if the world is indeed a dream as Homer
says, then that CAN be proven to one and all although it might
be emotionally disasterous for some.  The Adorian principle however
does not go so far as to say that Homer owes it to anyone to prove
anything except if it moves him, and further that Homer has some
duty to not throw his pearls before swine.

     Every Great One has warned not to let the power knowledge fall
into the hands of enemies.

     Openly discussing these subjects on ADORE-L could get me into
a heap of trouble with any number of groups who work with this

     However, to hell with them.  I make my own judgements.

You have said many times that you have
>seen these consequences, but you seem to be the only one on this last to be so

     This is a ridiculous statement.  My views actually are commonly held
among MILLIONS of people of Eastern religious decent.  Although it is
possible that everyone on this list but me is totaly bereft of any practical
experience in these subjects, that too is unlikely.

     My bet is that among the silent ones on this list there are many who
grant credence to similar suspicions about the universe and have
lots and lots of stories and experiences to tell you
but who can't take the heat of ridicule.

     Hell I HATE it, and I am an old goat at this game.

Why should we take your ideas any more seriously than the average
>maniac's ravings, then?
     Why should I CARE if YOU take me seriously.  I do not OWE
you anything.  In fact I ENJOY watching you approach the grave
believing as you do.  Ever notice only mortals don't fear death?

     I am writing as I wish others had written for me when I was
younger and could have used some help.  In fact many did write before
me, and I read eagerly, and although I too wanted proof, I also saw
that I did not NEED proof to come from them.  In fact I saw that
eventually the only thing that would make me certain of anything
was direct experience of my own memory and possibly a full exteriorization
from the body.  Something you will have to attain for yourself.

>>     YOU judge that you are NOT immortal by the LACK of clear memories
>>from before your birth.  Your experience is 'no awareness of responsibility
>>for your presence here on Earth' and your interpretation is that it did
>>not happen, you didn't choose.
>We judge that way because there is _no_indication_ that reality does not work
>that way.

     Who is WE?  Who has done the looking for those indications?  How
competant are they?  If I find indications and I show them to you and
you agree that you missed them all along, that makes you look pretty
stupid, no?

     We sleep and dream at night.  Mostly our dreams seem real to us,
only rarely do any of us have lucid dreams where in we remember that
we are dreaming.  I always change my tune once I realize I am really
dreaming.  Although I usually have to check it out really carefully
before I am totally certain I am dreaming.

     Mostly when dreams happen, I believe them to be real until
I awaken.  In the dream I would be saying 'there is no indication that...'
Jokes on me.

We also judge that the world is NOT caused to turn by thousands of
>enormous squirrels running inside it because we have 'no awareness'of them.

     You have no awareness of the external physical universe.  THERE are
your running squirrels and it is YOU who believe in them.

>Without supporting proof, it makes as much sense as Adore.
     Without supporting proof it makes as much sense as YOUR understanding
of ADORE and your ability to observe what's in front of you.  Ever do LSD?
Well if you haven't then that is just one place you never looked, so you
can't for example say you have looked everywhere and found NO INDICATION.

     I don't recommend anyone doing LSD, in fact I strongly
recommend against it, you don't need it, however it is absurd to say
'I am 21 or 38 years old and I have looked EVERYWHERE and there is no
indication.'  It's silly, you are not an expert on existance, and
you are not an expert on the personal experiences of 4 billion
other people.  At the best you can only say 'I have no proof
of Immortality, although I would sure desire it, but desiring it
and knowing it are very different. etc...'

     The idea that there is NO INDICATION is ridiculous.  Read the
National Enquirer sometime.  There is endless reams of indication.
Not very high quality, but its not like the subject never gets mentioned.
Go to your library and look though every book that starts with the
word CONSCIOUSNESS or is about CONSCIOUSNESS.  Again there is realms and
realms of indication.  Nothing to save your soul perhaps, but certainly
data that shows that something MIGHT be up in the world.
>You still don't have _any_ facts that you can show to the rest of us.

     This is silly.  You can't possibly know this for a fact.  All you know
is that I do not have any 'facts' that I am WILLING to show.  I will admit
however that I have lots and lots of facts that I CANT show you guys
because its personal experience and memory.  When I figure out
how to release these experiences in others with out them killing
themselves or going crazy to doing drugs excessively, I will share them.
But I am no where near that stage.  I am mainly interested in my own
Immortality and I don't give a flying fuck if no one else ever finds
out the truth.  However once things smooth out for me, you can be sure
I will be very willing to share everything I know, and CAN.

Show us
>something, and then I'll take you seriously.

     Who cares?  You are not offering me anything I desire, at least not
enough to entice me to divulge things ahead of schedule.

Otherwise you're just whistling
>in the dark, and trying to get converts in ways as bad as those utilized by
>Christians -- scare tactics and empty promises.
     It is you who are whistling in the dark and the rest of this list
sees it very clearly.

     I could care less about converts.  What good are they going to do me?
Adore does not have my name on it, and in fact it says in its own
pages that it was written by all of you.

     I have made no promises and I have not laid out any consequences to
befall those that do not believe as I do.

     Belief is for losers and Christians.  It will not suffice to
believe anything ever, only direct proof will suffice.   If direct
proof is found by a being then a conversion would be called for but
not before.  Since I am not offering any proof in the present time,
I can not be said to be trying to get converts.

     Besides some people on this list already are converts from their
own history, and just like to hear someone else talk about it.
I would LOVE to hear someone talk about it, but most would rather
stay silent.  I can understand that, and don't begrudge 'em the silence.

>Right.  Such criteria have been designed before on this list, and I will bring
>them forward again if you have forgotten.  Seems to me, though, that you
>resolutely refused to do anything about those criteria.  Where does that leave
>you, the alleged Immortal?  Looking pretty silly to us skeptics . . .
     I could care?  Why do you think I measure my self esteem by how
silly a skeptic thinks I am?  In fact if I were to hand out proof, then
all the skeptics would suddenly take me seriously and I would have no
one to consider me silly any more.  Couldn't have that now could we?

     Look the point of ADORE-L is NOT to convert anyone but to discuss
our experiences in life.  It is the skeptics that are trying to convert me.
If they would leave me alone, I would leave them alone.

     I consider my main audience to be those who have had lots and lots
of strange experiences and who have some contact with their eternal
history and who want to be in contact with someone else (not just me)
who shares the same feelings and possible world view.

     By the way remember that ADORE-L is a wide open list, you can
talk about anything here, of course you might get flamed.

>One thing in particular that you like to spout at us with no support is your
>famous line, 'The way in is the way out'.  I've said it before and I'll say it
>again: there are _many_ things which do not operate in this way.  Just look at
>the switch on your terminal.  Unless you can come up with some proof, we have
>no more reason to believe that remembering is a Alpha Lock key than an On-Off
>toggle switch.

     The only way you will prove this to yourself is to operate it and
see it if works.  It is not meant to be used against the physical universe.
In the first place you are not yet able to MAKE a physical universe so you
would be hard pressed to vanish one by making it again.

      It is however meant to be used against your mental unwanted conditions,
most especially forgetfullness and any other condition you find stressfull
in your beingness.  It works on stuck mental image pictures.

>have yet to hear a satisfactory theological response to.  The argument goes
>something like this:  Postulating the existence of a supreme being or set of
>beings who created the known universe merely increases the problem by an order
>of magnitude, solving nothing -- in fact just making it worse.

     It increases the problem by an order of magnitude IF you assume that
those supreme CONSCIOUS beings made a world of DEAD MATTER.
Then you have two substances, consciousness and matter and a more complex
theory.  Actually the Dust in the Winders subscribe to just this, except
that they believe that DEAD MATTER created CONSCIOUSNESS.  So they
sort of believe in a Supreme Unbeing who made all beings.

     Kind of a sad theory to feel you are in the hands of something
that feels no pain.

     However the Adorian veiw holds that there is only consciousness,
that space, time matter and energy are all projections.  Thus it is simpler
in the number of parts that it proffers, but is more complex in the
outrageous abilities it assigns to those fewer parts.

     The Dust in the Winders assume that all the CAUSE necessary to
make the external universe function is somehow distributed out
there among all the parts, so the DENSITY of cause remains at a mentally
manageable level.

     The Adorians assume that all the CAUSE necessary to make the
external universe function is somehow centralized in the thing called
SOURCE, a zero dimensional (scalar) multifaceted fundamental reality.
They make up partly for this added apparent complexity by doing away
with the external universe entirely saying it is all a dream in YOU.

     Admittedly however the Adorian universe is MORE COMPLEX, but notice
it is also MUCH MORE ABLE and needs to account for more.

     The Adorian universe supports zillions of souls in zillions of
universes with zillions of abilities that don't even exist in the
Dust in the Wind universe such as flying around.

     Its sort of like the difference in size between the Dust in the Wind
view and the Adorian view is much as the difference in size between the
present day view of the universe and the Christian Earth centered view of
the 1600's.  Imagine not being able to count up to 10 billion?

Seems to me
>that the only ones immune to this are your so-called Dust in the Winders.  They
>alone postulate nothing beyond this universe, and keep the problem at its most
>reasonable level, where we are most likely to be able to get a grip on it.
     Calling it a reasonable level is merely your value judgement and holds
no other basis in fact.

     Further the Dust in the Winders will NEVER get a full grip on their
universe because they are too small, finite and will not outlast it.

      The Adorian universe however comes ready made with understanding
of how it works at source.  Furhter entire physical universes can be
scanned at a glance by an entering being and there are no secrets
that can not be known and re known.

     The Dust in the Winders have no hope.

>One last request.  If you think you have adequate answers to any of these,
>could you please cut your use of WORDS in ALL CAPS down to an absolute minimum?
>I realize that this is just intended to distract the reader from whatever
>content might happen to slip into your messages, and I must confess it works.

     You presume to tell me what my intent is?  You should start taking
your own postings more seriously, as most people in their right mind would
trash yours as total noise without second thought.

 Homer               Adore-l list         9/12/89*A few quick questions for Hom