.ll 72
.fo off
.co on 
.ce ((Editor's comments in double parenthesis - Homer))
.ce ADR - 530
.ce Copyright (C) Homer Wilson Smith
.ce Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes
======================================================================== 268
Date:         Fri, 13 Oct 89 00:14:01 EDT
From:         Homer 
To:           adore-l@ualtavm

     In response to a short piece sent to me by Shari Feldman on
free will...

     The person writing the piece was hardly in a position to say anything
really intelligent about the subject and mostly his conclusions were both
confused and wrong.

     There are two halves to the subject of 'free' will.

     1.)  Freedom from External Restraint
     2.)  Freedom from Internal Determination.

     People confuse these endlessly applying arguements meant for
one to the other and getting themselves mired down in inanities
usually for the purpose of punishing someone.  'You did it, you
deserve to die for it.'

     Freedom from external restraint means that the will is able to
do what it wants to.  This is ABILITY to do what one DESIRES.

     If you are in a room and you want to get out, but the door is locked,
you are not free from external restraint.  If the door is open, you are
free from external restraint.

     Of course getting what you desire is always a process of game playing,
an accumulation of small moves that lead to the end result.

     If you say I want to be outside of this room NOW, you will not
be able to do that no matter how open the door is, because even if
the door is open you still have to go through the process of walking
through it which takes time and energy.  If you run out of either before
you get outside you are out of luck.

     Thus this process of DESIRE getting what it wants is always a
partial freedom from external restraint in the sense that if you can
get what you want in an acceptable number of moves you will consider
yourself free enough.

     Of course the whole idea of playing a game demands that you not
be too free cuz if you could get anything just by thinking about it,
there would be no game.

     Of course as a spirit you can have this state of no game too if
you want.  Its a bit of a game getting there at the moment because
at the moment you are in the state of playing a game.  But THIS
state was created BY YOU FROM the state of NOT having a game and so your
present game
state was created by just thinking about it and wanting it.  No game.

     It is freedom from internal determination that causes the most
problem with people.  They want to think that they somehow chose
to do what they did (which is true), but they don't want to be punished
for having chosen because they HAD to choose the way they did.

     More simply, the subject of internal determination approaches the
subject of WHY we DESIRE what we do.

     It is a given that IF we desire something, and IF we know how
to carry through on that desire, then of NECESSITY we WILL carry
through and go after that desire.

     Clearly we would be hard put to say that we really desired something
if we did nothing to attain it especially if it was in clear reach and
possible to attain.

     Yes it is possible to have two conflicting desires, but this does
not mean that we are any less determined by the stronger of the two.

     Thus once we DESIRE something, freedom from internal determination
goes out the window entirely, because our actions are from then on
determined by what we want and what we know about how to get it.

     In the language of ADORE,  DOING = WANTING + KNOWING.

     The problem of internal freedom therefore comes down to asking
why we desire one thing or another.

     One first approaches this by asking if total internal freedom
from determination is a good thing.

     Total internal freedom would mean our actions were related to nothing
at all.  Not even desire or knowingness.  What we did next just had no
bearing on anything that went before, or was going on now, or would
ever go on.  Such actions would be essentially random, totally uncaused
even by our own inner nature, and could not accomplish any specifiable
goal.  The minute you say goal you are taking about a tight system of
determination (by the goal) and discipline.

     Thus total internal freedom would result in behavior that was
100 percent out of context with any conceivable reality and would
therefore be not only totally useless but also probably destructive.

     There are many more ways to hurt things than there are to help
things, and if something were spewing force and energy into the world
truely randomly you can be sure people would soon consider it evil
and try to destroy it.

     So admitting that total freedom from internal determination is
100 percent undesirable, is there anything left of freedom to be

     Well what about those desires, where do they come from?

     Do you DESIRE certain desires over others?  Where did that
first desire come from?  Are desires created totally freely without
any connection to things as they are?  If this is true then the desires
that were created would also be random and hence destructive.

     In any case a little observation of yourself can clear up the
matter in a moment.

     Desire is basically for pleasure and to avoid pain.  Yes some seek
pain but only because it avoids a bigger pain or attains some rare

     Yes some avoid pleasure but mainly because pleasure causes some
bigger pain such as guilt.

     So desire is to attain pleasure and to avoid pain.  It is pretty
clear that this is absolute and can not be changed.

     If we choose some desires over others we either choose them because
we desire them or we choose them for some other reason.  In either case
we choose them for a reason and it would be much better if we
shoe our desires based on a fundamental underlying desire for pleasure
and no pain than for anything else.

     In any case it is obvious that our choices arise from something
more than nothing, probably our kind little heart that wants to do
good to the world, or perhaps our sense of revenge that wants to
get back at the bad.  But this is good no?

     Perhaps we wish to rip off the cheap slimes before they rip
us off.  But that too is good.  If not a trife dumb.

Thus there is no
internal freedom from determination.  Everything is a function of its
own internal nature, indeed that is what one's 'nature' is all about.
Something totally free would have no specific identifiable nature at all
except for that one.

     In our quest to satisfy our desire for pleasure and no pain we
operate our minds against the physical universe and we learn as much
as we can in order to postulate and discover ways that we can win
in this goal and we carry out what we have determined to be the best
course of action.

     Thus in this sense we are robots.

     Certainly since we are also spirits that exist above and before
any involvement with space time matter and energy it is conceivable
that we are capable of creating things in our minds and hearts that
are not strictly a function of anything that has gone on before in
the space time universe we find our selves in.  Thus our behavior
CAN be undetermined by anything going on in external space and time,
but it is none the less determined by our own internal nature.

     Since the attainment of pleasure and avoidance of pain can be
considered good it can be said with some confidence that all desire
units are basically good.  All men are basically good.  (Maybe even
women too.)

     I can just hear the Christians screaming now.  Poison them all.

     Since spirits are therefore basically good the problem of good
and evil comes down to one of sensitivity and cooperation and revenge.

     Spirits in their native state are inherently sensitive to others
pain.  They are pan determinedly RESPONSIBLE for others experience
therfore you can not hurt around such a spirit with out them operating
direct cause and knowingness over the matter.

     In this native state there is no differentiation between your pain
and my pain, and such a spirit can wander freely without a body and enter
others heads and experience their lives with out fainting.

     Of course to such a spirit pain does not hurt in the same way it
hurts us and in fact it has an element of beauty to it.
Yes there is Stardrive Majesty in the world.

     As the spirit by its own choice comes down the tone scale to
a lower position it begins to develope a definite me/you experience.
The spirit has separated himself off from others usually from hurting
them and pretending that he didn't do it.  The only way he can do this
is to deny it happened and the only way he can do this is to not
feel it himself.  Thus the infinite all resonsible spirit creates a sort
of schizophrenia in himself, as he is actually still CAUSING the pain
in the other being (so is the other being) but refusing to cause it
in himself.  He refuses to feel the others pain or even acknowledge it.

     Thus beings can get into this 'You hurt me, you cad' 'No I didn't' network
that results in a world of blame shame and regret.

     It also results in endless walls of insensitivity.  And this leads
to some serious straights wherein the spirit begins to consider that the
only way he can win his own game of pleasure is at the expense of pain to
another's game of pleasure.  This will cause the other being to perceive
the first being as totally evil.

     But each is just seeking pleasure.  One however has thrown
sensitivity and cooperation to the winds.  Sometimes pretty stupidly.
Thus spirits get into punishing each other for hurting each other.

     You hurt me and you didn't feel it, so I will hurt you and I wont
feel it.  Seems right, but thats a trap.  Now you cant feel his pain either.
That's YOUR loss.  Silly you.

     Seems to make a lot of sense until you see the WALLS that get built
around your ability to feel and see the world as it is without your body.

     Getting out of your body comes from a willingness to BE what you can
see.  If you have just whipped it publically you wont quite be willing
to do that and that will be just one more place in space and time you
wont be able to exteriorize too.  Eventually you cant move out of
your head.

     You say, 'but he did it to me first'.  Fine that stuck him in HIS
head.  When you did it back that stuck you in YOUR head.  Now who won?

     Silly, stupid and unspeakable.

     Eventually your head IS you.  But that is as low as you can go
and still be alive.

     Below that you are dead.  Or a robot for real.  Not to your own
endlessly benificent nature, but to the crushing and dead external
universe of matter energy space and time.

     So evil is sort of a joke.  Mainly it is good people fighting
each other.  They eventually stoop to the level of what they fear most
and sort of become evil themselves.  If you think that everyone around
you is evil, you wont much care what you do to them and you will take
your time doing it.

     In ADORE's words, all the people that good people fight are good
people who have given up the fight.

     The Christian's of course think that evil is real.  They never
realize it is just themselves looking in the mirror.  But it is a mask
they see and not the truth.

     The EXPERIENCE of evil is real.  But that does not mean the people
you put the experience ON are evil.   They probably think YOU are evil
and are ripping you off before you rip them off.

     The fact that you never had the intention to rip them off merely
makes them wrong and psychotic.  It does not make them evil.

     If you fall for considering them evil, you have made the same
mistake they have for different reasons.

     People don't ever get out of this universe until they solve this
problem of good and evil.  People don't want to meet their Maker, cause
their Maker made evil or made something else that made evil.
This idea leaves them a tad unhappy.

     There never was any real evil.

     In ADORE's words, just a lot of funny fear about guilt.

     Ah, Sweet Majesty.

 Homer               adore-l@ualtavm     10/13/89 No subject