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.ce ((Editor's comments in double parenthesis - Homer))
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.ce Redistribution rights granted for non commercial purposes
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Date:         Fri, 10 Mar 89 00:21:50 EST
From:         homer smith 
Subject:      Re: This list
To:           Adore-l list 
In-Reply-To:  Message of Wed, 8 Mar 89 11:30:21 EST from 

>   It is really nice to have a list like this one, and it has a
>lot of potential.  However, many of the postings seem to be
>lacking in supporting evidence.

     Jim is a skeptic.  He therefore needs evidence.  Which is fine.
But we must be careful to distinguish between a true skeptic and
a true disbeliever.  Or one who holds that no questions can ever
be answered.  Debunkers, you know.  A true disbeliever will never
accept any evidence of anykind, because their intention is not
to know the truth, but to debunk it at all costs.

    However really worthwhile truth comes from within, because it
is about consciousness and our own persons, something that might
not be measured with an external meter.

     For example I can not prove to anyone else that I really exist,
becase they can always claim I am just their hallucination.  But this
does not invalidate my certainty to MYSELF that I exist.  Thus certainty
and proof to others are two different worlds.

     Some skeptics are not even sure that THEY exist, so it becomes
hard to prove anything to them.

     If I have had a direct experience of Divinity (not God, Divinity)
it would be impossible to prove this in a scientific way unless such
experience lead to some powers that could be manifested in some outward
way.  Even then the existance of such powers would not NECESSARILY prove
that I had some experience of Divinity.

     By the way, experiences of Divinity are not hard to come by.
The only rub is that they always involve experiencing personal
responsibility for our birth and our existance in the externally
projected world.  That is what Divinity is about after all, isn't it?
Being CAUSE.

     The ADORIAN definition of DIVINE, is



     It is the experience of RESPONSIBILITY that makes experiences of
Divinity so hard to come by.  And of course the nay sayers are
positive that they are not responsibile for being born!

>always thought the Catholic excommunication was kind of silly -- if
>you don't believe what the Catholics do, why be one?

     The problem here is defining what Catholics believe.  I know
a bunch of gays who swear up and down on a stack of Bibles that
they are true God Fearing Christians, it is just that God made them
gay.   They reject out of hand the anti gay viewpoint of the Church
as totally non Christian.

Often, groups
>inside a religion will hold slightly different ideas, and they will
>lobby to have these ideas respected by the authorities in the religion.
>The efforts of homosexual Catholic preists is one good example of this.
>I don't understand why they don't just believe their beliefs, and leave
>it at that...

     Ah, I see that you were way ahead of me.  the answer is because
they also want the right to be called 'Catholics', or Christians.

     They do not want to have to say 'I am not a Christian because
I am gay, but I believe everything in the Bible except for that'.

     They have a deep relationship with 'Christianity' and want
everything that comes with being a Christian.

>  I'm always wary of anyone who claims to know what God thinks or says.

     Probably a good thing, but don't carry a good thing too far.

     You might miss the next Reluctant Messiah.

>That alone is usually enough to make me loose any respect for that
>person or group.  Homer has some very definate ideas about what God
>is, what it thinks, and what is really true.  But, he hasn't really
>been following his own 50% rule in that he hasn't given any support
>for his statements.  The AVL publications are a good example.  Saying
>"God likes this, etc...", without saying WHY it likes those things,
>is zero content!

     It is not.  To a skeptic, the only content there is is PROOF.
But before proof, must come statement of hypothesis.

     A hypothesis is not flame.  There for it is content.

     It says very clearly in APL No. 3 that we do not expect anyone
to prove what they say on this list, or support it with endless
references.  STATING the truth would be a major step forward
for mankind.

     You may reject what I say, but no one owes anyone any proof
of any content stated on this list.  THOSE are the rules.

     If I insisted that everyone prove every statement they made
on this list in order to be allowed to post it on this list,
everyone would leave.

     If you want I will change the rules to include mandatory
proof/support for all postings, and we will see if everyone leaves.

>  Note that I am not flaming anyone for this, I'm just looking for more
>background.  It's nice to say, "we're all souls that have fooled ourselves
>into believing in hard reality", but it doesn't do much to say that
>without describing why you feel that way.

     In the first place, let me ask you a personal question.

     Are you READY for the PROOF?

     Secondly, the reason I 'feel that way' is because I REMEMBER.

     If you don't remember, then practice forgetting, and you will.

     If you say 'Well why should I waste my time practicing forgetting
until you prove to me it will help me remember' then you are in
a trap that will last as long as you continue with that 'prove it
to me attitude'.  If you DO the forgetting, you WILL remember.
THAT is the proof.  It wont be overnight, but it wont be 5 years either.
And when it starts to happen, it will be MUCH TOO FAST and you will wish
to hell you could remember how to forget again!

>  As an agnostic, my religion can be summed up in one sentence.
>"I don't know what's going on, and probably cannot ever have
>certainty that my hypotheses are correct since they are unprovable."

     Ah, you see I am right and I have the proof right here in
your statement.

     You have certainty in the hypothesis that you can never have
certainty in any hypothesis.

     I can not get you out of this state of mind.

     Until you attain certainty that certainty is attainable,
you will never progress towards any other certainty.

>This isn't to say there aren't things we can know for certain.
>But, to make statements about the nature of reality, the existance
>of god, the meaning of life, and the code of behaviour approved by
>God is outside of this class.

     This is an assertion.  Are you CERTAIN of this?

     Thank God the rules of this list don't force you to prove it.

     The nature of reality, the existance of 'god/source', the meaning of
life and proper codes of behavior can all be ascertained WITH SOME TROUBLE
from direct experiences of ALL POWERFUL SELF RESPONSIBLE GOOD.

Again Homer, I beg you to comment on just
>why you believes what you do.  From private mail between us,
>you have said that your out-of-body experiences have helped shape
>your belief system.

     In the first place, my view does not come from one or two
strange experiences while under the influence of one or two
stranger substances.

     It comes from years and years and years of recovery of my
ability to REMEMBER who and what I am, where I have been, and
what I have done, and what my goals were, and how well I fared.

     It has also involved a LOT of tears and anger, confusion
and hysteria, shock and catatonia, detachment and ruin,
to find out all the friends, lovers and enemies that I have
left behind me on other worlds just because I chose to forget
some miserable things I did.

     Recovering this material in part or in hints,
has practically killed me 2 or 3 times and still may, and I have no great
love for hanging all this stuff up in the air for others to shoot
down with their silliness.

     But what the hell, we are all bozos on this bus.  I might
as well give you guys some good laughs.

     Along the way, if you are lucky or courageous, you might
leave your body for a moment or two, but it is a God awful
experience for some filled with the ill wind of Hell.  Very few
people indeed can get out and stay out and wander free.
And those that can are certainly not talking about it.
The government would dearly like to know about them.

If *I* had such experiences, I would not then
>pretend to know what God is, or what he/she/it/they believe(s).

     This is gratuitous insult.  I am not pretending to know
anthing I do not know for sure.  The AVL's are merely STATEMENTS
of possible alternative truths, they are not claims to be records
of what I have found out for sure is true.  ADORE is a religion.
In religion, we write the book first and do the research second.
Maybe we change the book later.

     However in the process of all the change that I have undergoone,
there is much to be seen, felt and experienced, and Eternal Divinity
is right there at center stage.

     It is that experience that leads me to suspect that conscious
souls are basically good and kind and prone to majesty, practical
jokes on themselves.  From this, very very bad evil can arise, but
it is all orchestrated in a symphony of dischords and resolves.
And the resolve comes for all in the end.  Thus there is no Hell
forever.  In fact evil is just fear of oneself.

     You create something, you forget you created it, you forget
you forgot, you find you can't get rid of it, you begin to wonder
who DID create it if not you, and voila you have evil.

     Or you figure you must have created it, but you sure wish
you hadn't and you make a strong determination to NEVER MAKE THAT AGAIN,
but you are still stuck with it, so you figure you must have been
a real jerk to have made it in the first place, and voila, evil.

     If you feel you are surrounded by evil, you will eventually
become evil in your dealings with others.  The wages of death
is sin.  Once hope dies, people stoop to the level of the enemy.  It
is apathy and overwhelm that leads them to do this.

     People do not become evil easily.

     But it is all their own shadows they are afraid of.  Things
they created and are now chasing them.

     All the people that good people fight, are good people
who have given up the fight.

     Further it becomes apparent that there are not two different
kinds of things called God and soul, but that the God of this
Universe IS a soul just like you and me, and one day we all
will have universes of our own, that is if we chose to.

     What most people call God, should really be called SOURCE.

     And source does not do anything at all, it is the ground
of the soul's being able to do things.  Souls create universes,
and then jump into them as creatures.

     Some people laugh at this idea.  They have a long way to go.

     Responsibility is a BIG thing.
>  So, instead of saying, "This is the way it is", let's say, "This
>is the way it is, because such and such."

     You are not being FORCED to accept what I say, there for
I am not forced to PROVE it.

     It is up to you to prove your own reality to yourself.

     My job is merely to offer an alternative view, albeit one
that I suspect has some serious plausibility.

     Of course to some, Divinity is not plausible, and for them
the road will be long.  Measured in the billions of years
and millions of bodies and 1000's of other planets until
they wake up, wise up and grow out for real.

>                                                Jim McCabe
>                                                MCCABE @ MTUS5.BITNET

 homer smith         Adore-l list         3/10/89*This list