Part of the problem with KP is he very easily condemns other's
ideas as HALLUCINATION but does not go into detail on how to know what
is hallucination and what isn't.

     Hallucination is generally taken to mean percieving something
that is not real.  The perception is real, but the implied external
referent isn't.

     For example someone reviving a death in the Revolution will be
back there, he will be right back there man, Redcoats all over the
place, and he can SEE them.

     If he is reviving then he will also react to them.  If he is
merely returning, then he will be able to recount 'what is happening'.
If he is merely remembering, then he will be looking at a picture of
what happened.

     So during a reviv or even a return we can say the pc is
hallucinating.  In the reviv he believes momentarily his
hallucinations, but in returning he knows he is hallucinating.

     So now that's in session, but sometimes you will get a guy on the
street who is so restimulated he will start seeing redcoats walking up
and down the boulevard and that is another kind of hallucination.

     Or rather than hallucinate a sensory event like visuals or sonic,
he may just hallucinate ideas.  He sees a guy walk in the door and the
guy is clearly an agent of Mars etc.

     So you have hallucination of sensory events and hallucination of
significance or both.

     But if we go back to the definition of hallucination as
perceiving something that is not real, we really have to first define
what is real and what is not.

     One reknown psych said that basically since the perception is
real, then whatever is in the perception is irrelevant, the guy is
seeing what he is seeing.  The real issue is how many are seeing it.

     If EVERYONE is seeing the same thing, then who is to say it is
real or just a hallucination?

     So his claim was that assignment of terms like hallucination or
psychotic to people was just one groups way of trying to out evolve
another group competing with it for survival.

     Now your average meatball will claim that this is absurd, the
universe is one way and not another, and we evolve up to a point where
we can sense the physical universe, and our survival depends on
whether we perceive it correctly or not, and if we don't, then we die
and that includes if we hallucinate things being there that aren't or
visa versa.

     Certainly this is a reasonable point of view from the meatballs
perspective but it depends on the concept that there exists a universe
independent of our perceptions of it, a universe that is in fact
RESPONSIBLE mechanically for our perceptions of it, and if we don't
perceive it right, well then our perceptual machine is broke.

     However what if the meatball theory is wrong?  What if there is
no actual external physical universe at all, what if its all a
holographic projection in the mind of God and its micro facets, us?

     Then the universe no longer is relayed to us by our PERCEPTIONS
of what is there, but is in fact CREATED by our PROJECTIONS of what is

     Again you have the problem of minorities projecting one thing and
majorities projecting others and so eventually winning out etc.

     But still the meaning of the term hallucination becomes much less

     For example according to Adore which eschews the meatball theory
in favor of the dreamball theory, just because we SEE space and time,
doesn't mean there IS space and time.  It does mean there is a
holographic projection mechanism, but the projector itself does not
have space or time.

     "Source sources what source is not." - Adore.

     In this view what we have are a number of dreamers projecting a
picture in their own minds of an external space/time universe, and
sharing it within themselves so they can all resonate to the same
illusion of space/time.

     What the meatballs assign to a huge external commonality that our
perceptions should refer to and must match to be 'right', dreamballs
assign to a co shared resonation of personal perceptions.

     Meatballs use perception to LEARN about the universe.

     This is Knowing by Looking, we look first then we know.

     Dreamballs use perception to CREATE the universe.

     This is looking by knowing, we know first then we see what we
knowed.  Meatballs of course call this hallcination and consider it
the highest high crime of all, namely to believe that what you think
is true becomes true just because you think its true.

     But then they are meatballs, eh?

     Adore says the meatballs used to be dreamballs but have by choice
fallen down into a state of DELUSION ABOUT ILLUSION.  They see space
so they believe there IS space.

     The Perception of space/time is an ILLUSION, and those that
believe it isn't are DELUDED ABOUT THE ILLUSION.

     So who is hallucinating, the meatball or the dreamball?

     Both are, but the dreamball knows it and the meatball thinks he's
in contact with actuality.  The dreamball knows both are only in
contact with their perceptions.  Since the dreamball makes no
interpolation from his perceptions to implied external actualities, he
can't be hallucinating as EVERYTHING he perceives exists only as the
perception of it.

     So take a look at dreams.  In my dreams there are people's,
places and times, and also in this world there are people's, places
and times.

     Since I have probably 2 to 3 lucid dreams a night and have for
years, I have spent many many many hours in my dreams doing
experiments to see how real they are, how in sync they are with their
own pretenses, and most of all whether the beings I meet in them are
"real" or not.

     For example I can say when I turn around there will be a piano
there, and sure enough I turn around and there it is.

     But its keys won't be right so I say, I'm gonna turn around again
and this time the piano will be right!  And there it is, just perfect.

     So I sit down at the piano and start some haunted melody out of
Chopin's 3rd piano concerto from who knows what life, and I find the
keys above middle C are just silent.  I can see the hammers moving,
but no sound.  The lower keys work perfectly.

     So I say "All right guys, stop fooling around, make the keys work
properly", and suddenly they do and away we go into music that haunts
the night and reminds me I don't know everything there is to know.

     OK, so is that a hallucination?

     Is the piano real?

     The music sure is, I can HEAR IT.

     My efforts to hit the keys in the dream are also real.

     So what isn't real?

     Just so with people.

     I run into all kinds of people in dreams.  Little one picture
BT's, more complex human type people, and some really mean powerful
demons etc.

     The BT's if they bug me I say "You are a BT!" and usually that's
enough to get them to stop.  If not, "Who are you/I?  What are you/I?"
and a few of those will puddle them into a little color puddle on the
ground or make them vaporize.

     The more complex people too respond to this kind of thing but I
find them more interesting.  I go up to them, grab them by the ribs
and squeeze to see if I get a living body reaction out of them, and I
talk to them, feel their tits, give them a kiss, ask them their name,
what the date is, what city this is, what planet this is, whether they
know they are dreaming or not etc.

     Finally I tell them I have only a few more minutes in their world
because I will be waking up soon and I can't stop it.  The love and
feeling in these dream worlds is WAY beyond this waking world, and
often both they and I are sad to see me go.  I wake up saying good bye
to them knowing I won't be with them for a while again.

     I lose new friends every night when I wake up.

     So is any of that real?

     Well my feelings are real.

     My perception of their bodies are real.

     But is there another being in that other body perceiving me back?

     I don't know, because I can't see another perceiver looking back.
You look into their eyes, and THEY LOOK ALIVE, just like any human
does who doesn't have tombstones in their eyes, in fact the dream
beings look MORE alive.

     And they act alive.  And the cry out in pain when hurt etc.

     And they are bright, and they can audit up a storm, and play
music, and smile and laugh and crack jokes, and impart wisdom I have
no clue where it comes from.

     I have more love and desire for some of my dream beings than I
have ever had for anyone in the waking world in this life.

     Is that hallucination?

     Am I just living in a dream world?

     No one there but my own imagination?

     I stick a knife into one of then and they cry in pain.  Just a
pretense, just a program to make the sounds sound right?

     The evidence that I have that my dream beings have living
sentient conscious units in them is just as great as any evidence I
might have about waking life beings.

     So how can I say that one is hallucination and another is real?

     KP can't answer this, so that kind of discounts his position.


Homer Wilson Smith     The Paths of Lovers    Art Matrix - Lightlink
(607) 277-0959 KC2ITF        Cross            Internet Access, Ithaca NY
homer@lightlink.com    In the Line of Duty    http://www.lightlink.com