Phil Scott (philscott@philscott.net) wrote:

>I was talking about fair game as Hubbard defined and practiced
>it...including.."find or *manufacture.... some discreditable thing against
>the person" paraphrased.   

     As I said all is fair in love and war.  One knocks the enemy out as
best one can.  If one got Hitler killed by manufacturing a lie about
him, would anyone complain?  I think not.

     The issue is WRONG TARGET.

     Always has been, always will be.

>And also the notion that one knows whats best for
>the rest of life....

     The issue is that someone must act, if we all admitted that we knew
nothing about what was best for life, we would be bogged down in a
quagmire of indecision and inaction.  Might as well sell one's
sovereignty for a nickle at the flea market.
     A lot of evil is allowed to take place simply because all the
sheep think '*I* have no idea what to do, better to do nothing...'

>and is in a position to make a decision on that..then go
>ruin what stands in your way....    the single human viewpoint is *always in
>almost total error....so targeting with that foundation is in
>error...therefore incorrect....you see?    thats a key point Homer.

     No, I don't see it.  I see that humans must act, as there is no
divine oligarchy to act for them, that acts of omission follow regret on
acts of commission, but the lesson to learn is to do it right, not to
make a mess of things and then to go permanently into inaction.

     If your message is that human efforts to right wrongs, and protect
the greater number of dynamics against those that would imprison,
enslave, or immobilize us all are always doomed to failure, then I would
say YOU are the SP still trying to immobilize us all.

>OK look....what percentage of human beings, including you and me, can be
>totally free of dramatizing past motivators?     Truly.  take a look.    I
>agree with your last part though...class... with class though one is not
>prone to harm another in the fiantest...thats with real class that is.. one
>is already at the top...and wouldnt dream of it.

     Well at the top, one is an OT that is more interested in creating
volcanoes that overrun villages, than in helping the villagers.

     The God/OT is an Artist painting in pigments of good and evil to
create a tapestry of divine comedy.

     The good don't get it, the bad don't get it.
     That doesn't leave many that get it.
     A little lower down the God/OT takes sides and starts to care about
one side over the other.  Again inaction in the face of impending doom
is a major overt in that game.

     One does not wait for the asteroid to hit earth to shoot it down,
if one sees it coming, even if one doesn't see it coming, one PREPARES
preemptively for the possibility.  Then one shoots it down even if it
probably won't hit us just as practice for the one that will.

     Same with assholes and dramatizing psychotics.

     When they are crawling like cockroaches up over the edge of the
abyss, kick them back in, tar it over and put up parking lot.

     OK, leave a man hole cover so some of them can negotiate their way
back out into civilized society and team work...
     Again its a matter of sanity, wisdom and picking the correct

     Dramatizing psychos tend to pick the wrong target and give doing
ANYTHING a bad name.  So what.

     Good process to run,

     "If you could kill (render inoperable) anyone with a thought, who
would you kill?"
     "What would happen?"

     Run to E/P.
> Lying blinds the person doing it,  If you take a close look at the issue of
>lying you will see that in the long run it is counter productive to the
>person doing it as well.  Lying masks reality.   Lying gives you another way
>out of a mess that would best be taken by a direct confrontation.

     Perhaps, the needs of the moment and the seriousness of
consequences of letting that moment go determine the desperation with
which one acts.

     It is not always bad to tell a lie, to protect a friend, misguide
an enemy, particularly one torturing you or out to torture your friends.

     "Hell no I can't move no marble!"
>>      It's the effort to ruin someone FOREVER that sticks one in the
>> dumpster oneself.  Without the forever, you can in fact do anything
>> to anyone for a while, as long as you are willing to remain friends
>> with them in the end.

>Semantics...your paragraph above precludes any seriously destructive fair
>game..that is if done as you said previously with class.   So you have
>validated the notions of fair game and lying, then went on to qualify them
>out by your 'class' statement...   
     Yes.  From Adore:

     "Anyone may do ANYTHING TO ANYBODY FOR A WHILE without fear of
consequences.  But once you try to do something to someone FOREVER, then
YOU end up in the boat you tried to sink them in until you give up
trying to sink them in it FOREVER."

     Now of course if you steal a penny from someone, they will probably
steal one right back, we aren't talking about those kinds of
consequences, we are talking about the self damage of classlessness.  If
you steal something from someone because "you don't care about them and
never will care about them", well you have committed a forever right
there in that 'never'.  So you are doomed.

     In fact thetans can not be hurt except by their own desires to BE
hurt, and to hurt another *FOREVER*.  Any being who has audited that out
completely can be crucified and enjoy it.

     So in the end both victim and villain are responsible for their own
condition.  Its all flow zero.  If the victim is pure of heart, no
forevers being wished off on others, then they can't be hurt at all, the
slings and arrows of outrageous fortune go right through them.
     But woe to the slinger and shooter of the arrows if his intent is
to injure forever.
>     I dont think you should have validated
>the notions of fair game and lying in the first place especially as on this
>NG those tend to carry L Rong Hubbards connotations and utterly hate
>inspired use.

     Your eval.  Just because Hubbard said it don't make it wrong, and
just because Hubbard or the GO or his lot of dramatizing sycos
(sycophants) looking for a license to kill abuse it, don't make it wrong

     Truth needs to be said there truth needs to be said.

     Hey Hubbard was a pansy compared to Adore.

     "The purpose of life is Kamikaze".  - Adore.

     Interpretations may vary :)

>>      Thetan's can't be hurt except by their own consideration of
>> forever ness.

>  That would be one sliver of one aspect of harm....there is no such thing
>imho as a non permanent vector in the fractal.  You know that.   You know
>how these compound and refract and shape the entire future completely,
>utterly and totally.   

     No, futures are finite.  They exist in space/time bubbles that are
independent of all other past, present and future space/time bubbles.
     Each universe is created in a WHILE.  Once the while ends, the
universe vanishes, and the next one to arise is as new.  There is
nothing retained from one universe to another, from one arising of
consciousness to another.

     There is is nothing forever except people and peace.  - Adore
     > I suggest you revisit that entire range of notions >you have
regarding 'its ok' as long as it isn't 'forever'.

     I have revisited it many times, it has become an operating
fundamental truth for me and the only means of workable case gain, spot
and run the intended forevers off the case.

     Also the irresponsibilities and the valences of innocent victims.

     Forevers are the *SOLE* source of aberration, as they are an effort
to enforce basic truth or native state, which is the only true forever.

     The difference between Native State and a dramatization is that
Native State is a forever of BEINGNESS, while dramatization tries to
create a foreverness of BECOMINGNESS.

     *THAT* is the only sin.

     Space/time is a game stream after all, the purpose here is to swing
the sword and lop off the heads of your enemies before they lop off
     But the players shake hands before they come on the field, they
march around with each other's marching bands during half time, and they
shake hands after the game is over.  And they INVITED each other to the

     You see that is class, taking full responsibility for the game, the
playing field, the other side, and the rules of play: last man left
standing wins for the team.

     "Class is an attitude, that ALL should live forever (above time)
and be my friend."

     "Cool is the ability to maintain Class."

     "Desire is sovereign."

     Its the being who says "I didn't invite you here, I don't want you
here, I don't want to play this game, I want to destroy you and the game
forever and never have to play it again, and I will break any rule to do
it", that's the being who is doomed as long, as he continues with this
nonsense.  He becomes a brick in the playing field, and in fact the
while can't end until he is freed.

     Since all whiles end, all beings give up the nonsense, get back to
play again, and eventually shake hands with the winning team, the
universe dissolves, and the next one to arise arises as if never before
has anything like this happened in all eternity.
>A being shapes himself by what he does.   It is also the reverse.    We
>constantly shape ourselves by both our deeds as they arize in reaction or by
>our own thoughts or as we are brainwashed by others...those changes are
>indelible on the landscape of eternity...they shape eternity.  
     Oh garbage.  Eternity is pristine and forever unaffected by the
goings on of temporal God Blobs (groups of Gods playing games of
space/time in a created while.)
>>      The minute you try to hurt or separate from someone FOREVER,
>> you have had it.  They go to heaven, you go to hell.  For as long
>> as you keep it up :)

>Ive found that one separates from one facet of a person ...say the person is
>ruthlessly abusive... one separates from that facet forever...he must.  

     No he in fact must not separate.  The other person and all of his
facets are in fact the other guy too.  You can't and mustn't ever
separate from ANYTHING forever.

     It's like the left and right hand.  Can the right hand hit the left
hand with a hammer and not hurt himself?

     Left hand and right hand are two different souls, but they are
connected at source, the spiritual brain, and it is not possible for the
right hand to hurt the left hand without hurting oneself.

     When a top level being hurts another, the first feels it too, this
is togetherness/goodness, and continues the line of class in all action
between them, the first remains a friend to the other and doesn't hurt
him more than he would himself want to be hurt should he be the same
asshole as the other.

     But when the first decides to harm the other FOREVER, he has said
the other is not me, we will NEVER be together again, your pain is
yours, not mine!  And thus the first creates a hell for himself of
eternal separation until he gives up his intent to be separate forever.

     The self imprisonment is instant and inexorable as it is based on
the guy's own postulate "I am separate from you!"

     You see then that Justice reigns at all times, justice is merely
that a sovereign unit gets what it postulates.
     Togetherness is goodness, separateness is badness.

     The only sin is alterisness.  All creation is in a while, thus the
only sin is the intent to violate the truth of the while with a forever.
     Eternal Being consists of an infinite number of whiles of becoming.

     Sin is trying to create a forever of becoming, or not becoming.
     Hell Forever is a forever of becoming.

     Death forever is a forever of not becoming.
     Freedom is eternal engagement in endless finite whiles of becoming
with lots of Big Snooze time between.