Rogers.  D.Scn. ( wrote:
>Okay, Homer, I have the capability of seeing things "that-a-way" too.

>BUT... I'm a bit worried that you are using Axiom One to somehow justify an 
>abhorrence or denial of the mest universe (harmonious with Theosophical and 
>Yogic concepts, mind you).

    Abhorrence and denial are both considerations and have nothing
to do with the actuality.

     The issues at hand are those of illusions.

     So you are sleeping and have a dream, and in the dream you bounce
a ball off the wall.

     Why does the ball bounce off the wall?

     Couldn't the ball just as easily go through the wall?

     In that same dream you turn on a lamp, and the room lights up.

     Why does the room light up?  Photons?

     Do dream walls need photon's or even lights to light them?
Haven't you ever had a dream where you turned on the light, and the
room lit up but the light stayed off?

     In that same dream you get in a car and start the key, and it
revs up and you drive away.
     Do cars in dreams need gas to run?
     So meatballs have two answers for these things depending on
whether you are sleep or awake.

     They admit in the dream that the ball bounces off the wall
BECAUSE a third party, namely 'the brain' makes it look like the wall
is cause over the ball, but its a projected illusion of cause.

     But when you are awake, the wall is really out there and really
causes the ball to bounce off the wall.

     That's how the brain got the idea in the first place.

     This is in fact incorrect.

     The mechanisms and illusions of placement of cause are the same
in all dreams, the wall does not cause the ball to bounce.  The thetan
creates that illusion so it can blame the wall and have a game.

     At no time is cause where it seems to be.

     The theorem of equivalency says "There is no experiment
that you can do either awake or sleeping that will prove with absolute
certainty that you are awake or sleeping."

     In other words everything that happens awake can happen in a
dream, and everything that can happen in a dream can happen awake,
and there is no experiment or observation anyone can do to prove which
state the being is in.
>Or, taking another tack, you want to completely validate THETA, yet desire 
>to completely invalidate (as illusion) the CREATIONS of Theta?  Why?

     The creations are the material of illusions.

     Illusions (assignment of cause) are necessary playing the game.


     What I am writing merely shows how the virtual reality works, and
thus implies a route back out.  Namely taking full repsonsibility for
all efforts and all emotions on all dynamics as one's own, full
pandeterminsm, and thus one can vanish one's involvement in these

     There is no MEST except people's dream of MEST.
     MEST is one great big co hallucination.

     The hallucination is actual, but the implied space and time and
causes aren't.

    Hallucinations of space don't actually take up any space!
>I mean, on the one hand, I see your point of view as a good exercise.  You 
>know, good exercise, particularly at this stage of the game because it 
>balances and compensates for excess involvement and/or fixation in the 
>"creations" and mest.

     People are fixated on MEST because they believe it to be actual,
and they believe their consciousness of MEST arises from processes IN
MEST (da brain), and that they are MADE of MEST.

     You know, "everyone could be dead and MEST would continue on."

     And "If you kill the brain, the being is killed to!"
     Externality doesn't exist at all, its an illusion, we each create
pictures (which are actual but made of consciousness not metal or wood
or space or time etc), and we overlay our pictures with the pictures
of other thetan's, so we both can see the 'same apple'.

     Its a good experiment for two OT's to do.

     Sit on opposite sides of a table and have both mock up an apple.
Have each describe their apple, and have the other try to duplicate
it.  Then reverse the roles.

     At some point if they are able to do this, the two apples, both
of which are merely mocked up pictures in their own minds, will
suddenly lock onto each other and become 'one apple'.  This will scare
the living daylights out of both beings as they will suddenly feel the
presence of the other being's cause through their own apple!

     One being is trying to make the worm wiggle this way, and the
other being is trying to make it wiggle that way, and sudden the worm
fuses into one worm and starts to wiggle on its own "Hey I'm real!"
and it starts to eat a hole in a direction neither are quite
controlling any more.  Each one is now blaming the other, thinking "I
didn't do that!" and you have an apple with a worm on the lose.
     Then if one of the beings moves the apple across the table, the
other being will see his own apple move also!  Then they can fight
over the apple to see who gets to move it where.  The apple will
become VERY solid to a point where they can't get rid of it.

     They can then run another VERY OT drill and try to get rid of the
apple :)
>But again, I don't see how one can validate Theta and simultaneously 
>consider theta-creation invalid?  As far as I am concerned, the invalidation 
>or "write-off" of the mest universe is going to (circuitously, perhaps) come 
>back to the invalidation of Thetans.

     YOU interpret my factual description of how things work as

     I am merely writing the facts.

     If you assign cause to something and run from it, it WILL come
after you and eat you.

     This doesn't mean it ever had any cause of its own.

     Assigned cause = illusion.
     Belief in illusion = delusion.
>Yeah, Ron himself used the term "illusion" on occasion, but it should be 
>understood that he didn't mean it in a theosophical or invaliditive way. 
>When a thetan puts a "mock-up" in place, it is exactly and simultaneously 
>the equivalent of saying "IT IS."  You know, "It is - because I say it is."

     Not quite.

     I can say 'There is a wall' and yes there is a PICTURE of a wall
in my conscious experience, color, weight and temperature etc.

     But its a dream.

    It may LOOK like its made of brick, but there is no brick, its made
of conscious picture that looks like it is made of brick.

     It may LOOK like its 'out there' in space and time, but there is
no out there in space and time, its a *HOLOGRAPHIC* projection, a
*VIRTUAL REALITY*.  It looks like it is out there, period.

     If I close my eyes the wall goes away.  We may pretend it is
still there, but it isn't.

     Now I mock up a ball, yes the conscious picture of the ball is
quite real etc.  And we throw the ball at the wall, and what do you
know, the ball goes right through the wall.

     Well we can't have that can we, so we postulate that the ball
can't go through the wall, and lo a and behold it now bounces.


     We assigned cause to the wall.

     Is it actual?  No.  Conscious pictures can't have actual cause
except to be perceived.  That's the only cause a mockup actually has,
the conscious mockup causes you to perceive it.

     Is it real?  You bet, the ball bounces off the wall like there's
no tomorrow.

>Use of that old term "illusion" is a mistake in the first place because of 
>its associations and "understoods" in connection with "unreality" and such. 
>But as Ron explained in his lectures in Phoenix, basically, when a thetan 
>puts out an 'illusion' it IS ACTUAL.

     This is your confusion and *MASSIVE* MU.

     When a thetan puts out an illusion it IS REAL.

     It is never ACTUAL.

>And if you come along, Homer, and try to persuade that thetan that his 
>illusion has no existence or validity, you're likely going to have a fight 
>on your hands.  (ha ha ha)  He might just NIP you with "illusionary" beams 
>and take your head off.  (wink)

     He can only do so if I have assigned cause to him.

     The only thing a thetan can cause is a mockup, a conscious

     The fact that the sun 'lights' the world is an intricate hook
together between experiences that allude to cause being out there,
which is the illusion.  If he believes it, then he is in delusion
about illusion.  This is necessary in order to dream and not know you
are dreaming, so its an ability and a necesary one.

     It's still delusion about illusion.

     Ron goes over this in great detail in the Phoenix Lectures.

     Thetan's don't like being told that space and time are illusions,
let alone having it proved incontrovertibly to them, because they both
then cave in on the thetan.  With nothing holding them out there,
nothing holds then out there!

     For millenia they have been held out there by his belief THEY ARE
OUT THERE.  Once he realizes he is dreaming, just like when asleep, he
starts to wake up, which is space and time caving in and going poof!

     It far easier to wake up out of a sleep dream than this dream
because this dream is protected by Nemesis One.

     Sleep dreams are only protected by your desire to not go to work
for a while.



Homer Wilson Smith     The Paths of Lovers    Art Matrix - Lightlink
(607) 277-0959 KC2ITF        Cross            Internet Access, Ithaca NY    In the Line of Duty