Ah, John Dorsay, my one and only true love,

      John is a meatball much as I was, however he has serious depth,
personal integrity and a sharp and honest mind that actually works and a
joy to converse with.

John Dorsay (sarcastically) said:
> Because whatever Dobbs calls "exteriorization" and the data he can
> report is as trivially demonstrable and exactly as useful as my
> infinite supply of write-only memory and the data it can report.
> Exteriorization is no more interesting than write-only memory.

      Not if he can see things the body's eyes can not see and report
back on them accurately to others.

     In the movie 'men who stare at goats', the two guys were stuck in
the dessert, and one of them was pulling cards off a card deck at
random, and the other was telling him what they were.

     When asked what his longest run of successful calls was, he said
over 600.

     Now how can you say that is not interesting?

> You and I went down a much more interesting path recently when we
> discussed dreamspace vs meatspace. While I might be able to nitpick
> some minor details of your dreamspace model with some success, I
> recognize that neither of us can demonstrate its (in)?correctness as
> a whole. The same problem exists with the meatspace model of the
> universe.
> As I recall, we agreed about this limitation of both models and
> enjoyed some generally serious but occasionally light-hearted
> discussion about ways one might overcome the problem, and thus
> determine that either model is correct or incorrect. But we were
> unable to  reach any conclusion. I'm not sure that it is even
> possible to show the problem is either solvable or unsolvable.

      OK, I am going to have to pull some orthodox science on you.

     Every word of which I am sure you know, so this is just for the
record and so we talk accurately and not in the language of hyenas and
other hypocrites.

     Theories or models are never true or false, only workable and

     We confuse workable with true and unworkable with false to our
detriment.  Only direct perceptions of things as they are can be called
true or false, and they are no more theories.

     True we often claim a theory is proven FALSE when a counter example
is found, but really we are saying it is unworkable.

     More accurately we posit the following as solid scientific

     Universal or general theories (all daisies are black) can never be
proven true because we can't see all daisies, but can easily be proven
'false' with one white daisy counter example.

     Existential theories (there is at least one white daisy) can never
be proven false, but can easily be proven true by showing a single
example of one.

     So a single example proves an existential theory and a single
counter example disproves a universal theory.

     The meatball and dreamball THEORIES are actually existential and
universal theories, to account for and predict phenomenon.

     The meatball says 'There is a physical universe', that's an
existential statement and easy to prove true, show me one.

     The dream ball says 'There is no physical universe', that's a
universal statement, and thus very hard to prove true, and very easy to
prove false, again show me one.

     The dreamball theory says that consciousness is eternal and the
prime cause of illusions of space, time, outthereness, and external
causality.  Dreams in other words.

     We make sure to distinguish between eternality above time,
and immortality in time.

     The meatball theory says that space and time are prime cause of
consciousness which can render images in itself of what space and time
are like.  It is asserted that there is a geometric similarity between
the conscious rendition of a cube and the actual referent out there in
space and time.

     The meatball considers it 'obvious' that if there is space
and time 'out there' that it should pretty much look like what
it is rendered as in one's conscious experience of it.

     The dreamball doesn't think that's a forgone conclusion.

     The meatball thinks space time existed before consciousness, and
consciousness is a process in a spacetime gizmo called the brain.  When
the brain ceases, the consciousness ceases too.

     The meatball theory claims that love and shame can of force and
mass be made.

     Now the meatball theory is relatively new to the world, and frankly
it is in a great state of disrepair.  First Newton, then Einstein, and
now just about anyone will admit they haven't a clue what they are
talking about when they talk about the physical universe.

     All they know is the model of a hardball outthereness that looks
like what we see it as, works up to a point, meaning we are going to
need a quantum leap into the next level of theory in order to account
for things we have already observed but which violate present theory.

     This doesn't mean the meatball theory is wrong, it only means it is
inaccurate or incomplete, meat can do more than we know.

     So someone can do the card thing.  Or he can see through walls,
read minds, move the marble, remember past lives and go dig up the box
he left behind in some forest on the other side of the planet, whatever.

     We DEFINE OT powers as any ability or event that violates present
meatball theories, including our understandings of conservation of
momentum and energy.

     God therefore by definition was an OT when he said "let there be
light", because that violated conservation of everything!

     Now whether that God is a conscious sentient being, or just an
underlying mechanism, it is pretty clear according to present theories
that 'before' spacetime was something that was not spacetime, and
therefore the basic creation of spacetime was a violation of
conservation of momentum and energy, and thus an OT event by definition.

     Thus once spacetime is created, we then like to pretend that OT
events can no longer happen on their own nor at the command of a
conscious being, particularly if that conscious being is MADE OF that
space time and its accoutrements, like matter and energy.

     Remember though that just because we THINK we have violated these,
doesn't mean we have, it might just mean the meatball universe is bigger
and more encompassing that we know.

     Now everything scientific starts off with a observation of some
kind of dependable followingness between two different events, and
results in a need for a model or theory of causation to account for the
dependability of that followingness.

     Sun rises, cock crows.  How come?

     How come the crowing FOLLOWS the sun?

     How does the crowing come from the sun?
     That's science.

     The purpose of theory is to change a statistically (too) high
probability of followingness into NECESSARY followingness.  to then
account for the statistically high correlation.

     Cause implies necessity of dependable followingness, and necessity
of dependable followingness implies cause.

     In fact one could be very philosophically bold and claim that that
causation and necessary dependable followingness are one and the same
thing, and neither has any existence outside of each other.

     Once a theory of cause or 'comingness' has been formed, predictions
usually can be made that allow us to find other observations of
followingness that should also exist.

     So we apply the meatball theory to the guy with the cards.

     Meatballism ca.  2010 says there are 4 fundamental forces of
nature, and consciousness is a process in them.

     They seek a unified theory of everything, where the 4 are reduced
to one, but they also think they can explain consciousness and the
facility of perfect certainty with force and mass across a distance.
     Thus they will fail if it is true that perfect certainty is not
possible across a distance.

     In the meatball theory Data can only flow along these forces at the
speed of light, and we are pretty good at measuring those forces and
speeds down to trillionths of an erg.

     So a first experiment is we lay a card pack down on a table up side
down and we find the telepath can read them off perfectly.  How do we
account for this?

     A mature person can deal with the hypothetical, he doesn't say well
I will think about it when someone does it.

      The idea is to think about it first, come up with a possible
theory, which will then lead you to being able to do it!

     It is amazing how many meatballs are religiously opposed to that

     The hypothetical process is what distinguishes the mature
scientific mind from the congenitally defective hyena.

     Second experiment is the telepath can NOT read the cards on the
table, but can if another being sees them first one at a time as in the
movie, men who stare at goats.

     The first experiment indicates data flow from cards to telepath
without the intervention of another being.

     The second experiment indicates data flow from being to being.

     Can the meatballs find, detect and measure this?

     Not in present time.

     Is it a significant set of experiments?  *VERY*.

     Now meatballism tends to think of 'out there' as all there is, in
other words all the cause that flows, flows from point to point through
out there (space and time).  So if we can intercept the causal messenger
wave while it is on route, then we can say we have found the means of
data flow.

     But quantum mechanics now recognizes the theoretical possibility
that out there is not the source of causal flow, that the meatball
universe is a rendition of the outcomes taking place in a higher
universe called the non local universe, wherein actual cause actually
takes place.

     It is called 'non local' because events there are not described by
locations in space or time, yet which effect the final rendition in
space and time.

     This idea renders the outthere universe as a huge TV screen which
is showing what is going on in the non local universe.

     That's one step away from the dream ball universe, which gets rid
of the out there universe entirely, and claims that non local universe
IS the global High US consciousness, and our conscious renditions are
renditions of what is going on in the non local universe.

     The relegating cause to the non local universe allows and explains
various experiments where the flow of cause between point A and point B
CAN NOT be found in out thereness between the two points, but where the
flow of cause is clearly happening anyhow, presumably directly from the
nonlocal universe into the meatball universe bypassing anything in

     This would allow instantaneous quantum entanglement between two
distant particles, and might allow an INWARD pathway from one
consciousness to another allowing data flow to account for the card
reading ability between two beings separated by a distance.

     In other words data in consciousness does not need to flow through
the out there model of 4 fundamental forces any more, but can
communicate up to the non local universe from one being and back down to
the other being without ever going THROUGH any space or time.

     The dream ball theory has a totally different take on it, namely
the out there universe doesn't exist, the conscious renditions we are
conscious of are dreams in the zero dimensional substrate of a multi I
AM God called the HIGH US, and by definition these dreams are shared via
that same zero dimensional causal substrate (non local universe) between
beings, that has nothing to do with any thing in the dream, as there is
no external cause at all, only virtual renditions of cause, as in a
multi player arcade game.

     Further, although the proof says perfect certainty of cause and
effect can not happen across a distance between two different objects
there is nothing prohibiting perfect certainty from happening in a zero
dimensional universe where cause and effect are one event with no space
time between them.

     Being becomes seeing and knowing all in the same self evidencing
     Since all space time in the dreamball theory is holographic
illusion, the colors are real but the out thereness is not, and there is
no actual space time between any two beings, thus they can communicate
instantaneously and do so in the sharing of the dream.

     IN the dream, things are limited by the speed of 'cause' or light,
but between beings there is no such limitation.

     Note however that allowing intra dream data to flow along inter
dreamer data paths at instant speeds, would seriously mess up
conservation of momentum, energy and cause in the dream, thus possibly
really screwing up the game, if only by waking everyone up that it was
nothing but a dream game.

     Now the question is, not which theory is right, but which theory is
more useful to predict what other abilities there might be, and HOW TO

     When Einstein first came up with E=mc2, a reporter asked him if
that could ever be used to get energy.  This was way back in 1913,
forgive me if I forget the correct date.

     He said NO, its just a theory.

     30 years later it became a reality with the Atom Bomb and the
winning of world war II against some serious evil.

     Same thing with the dream theory, right now it predicts all kinds
of things that most of science has never done, and so it is 'just a

     Give it 40 years through and watch what the face of war becomes

     The dreamball theory has a very clear statement on this matter, of
HOW to get OT powers back.

     Now remember an OT power *BY DEFINITION*, so don't argue with it,
is any ability or event that violates meat space rules of energy and

     Thus any being with such abilities would be like a micro God, able
to 'create' a micro big bang space time event in present time.

     Create one photon out of the blue, and that is what you have done.

     That a conscious being could do this now, does NOT mean a conscious
being did it at the real big bang, but it might mean the conscious being
now has tapped into the underlying causal substrate that originally
caused and continues to support the existence of space time, be it a
dream or not.

     The dreamball theory shows a quick way to such OT powers, namely
the being chose to enter the dream state, so by auditing that choice and
its motivations to forget the choice, the being can wake up from time,
and reenter time again if it wants.
     Since the being is already projecting the cards on the table,
SOMETHING already knows what those cards are and the being can tap into
that knowledge by direct perception of perfect certainty, as it had that
knowledge coming in, and in fact is choosing to not know that knowledge
while in the dream.

     Exact approaches may vary, but the general approach is to duplicate
the choice AND MOTIVATION to come in and to not know the various things
that are not known but which are clearly projected.

     The dream theory also claims that the being wakes up into the OT
eternal state every time it is seriously hurt, and there makes
postulates which create psychosomatic conditions in his body, heart,
mind and soul, which it can not then get rid of.

     Again by auditing those moments of ascension during pain and
outward 'unconsciousness', the being can amend it's decisions and thus
get well again.

> If it was possible to prove exteriorization exists, that would also
> show that the meatspace model is incorrect. The latter is a "hard",
> perhaps unsolvable problem. I am not disputing the possibility that
> Dobbs experiences exteriorization, however unlikely I think that may
> be. But I am disputing the possibility he can prove it.

     We must not confuse proof with evidence.

     The only evidence we would have of Dobbsie's exteriorization is
reporting data the body can not see.

     That is the only USEFUL evidence in a shared universe, where we
cannot prove the existence of others, nor of the shared space time the
meatball theory hypothesizes is out there.

      The meatballs think that because something LOOKS like it is out
there it must COME FROM out there.  They forget they could be dreaming.

> Just to be clear, I'm not rejecting your dreamspace model. As
> tempting as it is to dismiss its requisite preconditions as defying
> reason, the same problem plagues the meatspace model when one asks
> what came before the big bang. That being said, I can offer a
> thought experiment that in my opinion tilts the scale towards the
> meatspace model. I can't think of any that favor the dreamspace model.

     The whole issue of what is 'before' time is mostly a verbal problem
in understanding.  Our spacetime minds can only understand linear cause
and effect in time.

     The whole idea that a being could 'move out of eternality into
temporality' is verbal nonsense, but so many have reported it that one
needs to see through the verbal nonsense to what possibly is really
going on beyond the hyena cat-calls of hallucination and delusion.

     If we can understand that space is a holographic illusion, we
certainly can at least conceive the possibility that time is a
holographic illusion also.

     I look forward to your thought experiment.

     Anyhow your position needs to be modified by the possibility that
someone actually did read the cards to your satisfaction.

     I suspect that only absence of evidence in your world for such
things keeps you hanging on to the meatball model.

     When the being is exteriorized from space and time, and sees the
coming in and returning to eternality going on with every breath, and he
understands intellectually that the existence of the conscious rendition
(symbol) does not prove or even give evidence for the existence of an
actual physical referent which he has never seen, the whole idea of a
meatball universe begins to fade.

      It remains as a VIRTUAL meatball universe however, accurate
down to the last quark.

      So the dreamball can have his cake and eat it too.


Homer Wilson Smith     The Paths of Lovers    Art Matrix - Lightlink
(607) 277-0959 KC2ITF        Cross            Internet Access, Ithaca NY    In the Line of Duty

Homer Wilson Smith     The Paths of Lovers    Art Matrix - Lightlink
(607) 277-0959 KC2ITF        Cross            Internet Access, Ithaca NY    In the Line of Duty
Fri Dec 10 17:05:08 EST 2010