I think the point of this posting below is that getting out of a head 
doesn't prove you aren't a head, it could be a hallucination.

    Even if the body died and you were out of your head, it could
still be that your body was in fact alive, but hallucinating
that it was dead.

    So people are in a quandry about what experience they could have
that would prove to them that the world was a dream.

    The answer probably lies more in contact with eternality and native 
state and the concomittant choices to start dreaming, than anything they 
could experience in the dream.

    They have to RECOGNIZE themselves as Source again of their present time
experiences to really get out of the proof market.


Homer Wilson Smith     The Paths of Lovers    Art Matrix - Lightlink
(607) 277-0959 KC2ITF        Cross            Internet Access, Ithaca NY    In the Line of Duty

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, wrote:

> Hash: SHA1
>      The physical universe (PU) owns us.
>      We think we are MADE of it.
>      We think nothing is certain unless the PU agrees with us even
> though we can NEVER be certain of the PU.  Allowing a perfect
> uncertainty, the PU, to control and define your own perfect certainties,
> our own existence as conscious units, is ludicrous.
>      And worse we have been relegated to being a process in a little
> piece of the PU, our brain.
>      This *I* stuff is hallucinatory nonsense.
>      And we believe we die once our little piece of the PU stops
> functioning.
>      And we need to eat other little pieces of the PU and make THEM stop
> functioning just so we can continue functioning ourselves.
>      Worse we were born to desire to be immortal, but our view of
> ourselves as a process in the PU has crushed that desire into oceanic
> sorrow, which we are not big or powerful enough feel any more, and which
> has finally become 'What sorrow?'
>      People feel the PU exists because there is something they are
> experiencing which they feel they could not make themselves, and only
> something like the PU could make them experience it.
>      They thus use THEIR OWN experience to prove to themselves that
> something other than themselves, is causing them to experience it.
>      Hunger, pain, crushing loneliness and loss, and need for sleep.
>      I eat the apple and the hunger goes away.
>      The apple sure TASTES actual.  But it is in fact the actuality of
> your conscious experience of eating the apple that is then projected
> onto the non existent PU.
>      Your sense of actuality comes from YOU and YOUR SELF LUMINOUS
> CONSCIOUSNESS, why would you then attribute your sense of actuality
> to something that you haven't clue whether it exists or not?
>      You believe things exist not because you ran into the physical
> universe, but because you ran into YOU!
>      What people are feeling is the horror of wondering if they are made
> of the PU.  They feel that they could only feel that horror if they WERE
> made of the PU.
>      Thus doubt becomes self casting.
>      Consider the following experiments in telepathy.
>      Say you and Goober decide to prove to the world that telepathy
> exists.  You and Goober will sit in two different rooms, and you will
> think of various numbers and Goober will receive them, but nothing will
> be written down.  You do this experiment and it works well, and both you
> and Goober come out smiling at the end of the experiment.
>      But everyone around you watching the experiment are not happy at
> all, as you haven't proven anything to THEM, and THEY will say you
> haven't proven anything to yourselves either.
>      Say you think the number 5, and Goober gets it and thinks back at
> you the same number.  That proves to you he got it right?  Well how
> exactly do you know the second 5 that came from Goober actually came
> from him?  Can you really be sure where your thoughts come from, maybe
> you were just sending and receiving answers to and from yourself.
>      So this time we make Goober write down the numbers he receives from
> you and and show them to you at the end of the experiment.  Assuming you
> can remember what numbers you sent him and in what order, your socks
> will probably go electric when what he has written down matches your
> transmission exactly.
>      But again no one else will be impressed, they have no way of know
> what numbers you really sent to Goober, or if he got them, all they know
> is that you claim they are the same as what Goober wrote down, they have
> no reason to trust your claim that they are right.
>      So this time you write down your number before you transmit it to
> Goober, and he writes it down when he receives it, and then later the
> both of you compare numbers and they match.
>      Now the military is interested.
>      But has anything changed, really changed in what is going on?
>      In the first case two people are enjoying a clear telepathic
> communication to each other, and in the last case they are still
> enjoying a clear telepathic communication to each other.
>      But in the last case we have what we call end to end physical
> universe verification of the communication line.  This makes everyone
> else happy, or nervous as hell depending on your viewpoint of the
> matter.
>      Notice Goober could have simply come over and said what the numbers
> you sent him were, and you could say yes or no according to whether he
> was right.  But no one would buy that.
>      For other's to buy it, you would have to tell someone other than
> Goober, and he would have to tell someone other than you, and THOSE TWO
> would have to tell each other for anyone to be impressed at a claimed
> match.
>      But even then only the extra two observers know for sure what they
> were told and what they told each other, and everyone ELSE is still in
> wonder cuz the two researchers could be lying, hallucinating or
> dreaming.
>      One might have the two researchers publicly speak the numbers AT
> THE EXACT SAME TIME so everyone could hear that they weren't in
> collusion with each other, but writing it all down on cards that can't
> lie or hallucinate makes things easier.  Then everyone can come and
> compare the cards themselves long after the experiment is done.
>      The point is that without some PU record AT EACH END of the event,
> source and destination, no one can be sure the event happened, probably
> not even you and Goober!
>      So one night you are sitting alone, and you get this thought that
> you should go meet Goober at a bar two days hence in a city 2000 miles
> away for both of you.
>      The bar's name is the Ok Coral.
>      You don't call Goober and he doesn't call you, but you get on an
> airplane and end up at the OK Coral on time, and sure enough there is
> Goober.
>      You talk for a while, and then Goober tells you why he had you come
> so far, he has a car with a flat that needs changing, that's been lying
> fallow on the street from years before when he first visited the OK, and
> he needed your help to change the tire.  So you both go to the car and
> neither one of you can move the lug nuts alone.  But together you make
> them move and the tire gets changed.
>      Notice goober didn't need YOU, he needed YOUR BODY.  The sum
> totality of why Goober wanted you to show up was because of your
> physical universe component.  The whole rest of you, everything that is
> not PU, is totally useless to him.
>      He has a PU problem that only a PU presence can solve.
>      And if its not a PU problem, who cares?
>      Now say another time happens, and you receive a message from Goober
> to meet you at the OK Coral again, but this time, to not bring your
> body.
>      So you go to sleep, exteriorize, and move across country to the OK
> Coral and lo and behold Goober has done the same thing.  So the two of
> you, with no physical attachments in sight, have a good evening laughing
> and joking about the car thing, and wouldn't it be great if we didn't
> need bodies to get things done, and when it is over you both fly home as
> spirits, reenter your bodies and wake up.
>      It doesn't even occur to you to call Goober on the phone to VERIFY
> that this all actually happened.
>      But did it?
>      So you remember that while you were at the OK this second time as
> spirits, Goober told you about a present he had left for you in a hidden
> area in your home.  You go to find it and sure enough it is right where
> he said it was.  It was a birthday gift he hid as a child during an
> earlier birth day party at your house, it had been there for 30 years
> unbeknownst to anyone.
>      Does that increase the liklihood of the spirit meeting at the OK
> Coral being actual rather than delusory?
>      If so, do you see how you are DEFINING your existence and
> experiences as meaningful and actual only if they affect the PU somehow?
>      But what happens if the PU is itself a dream?
>      How can the dreamer define the truth of his existence using one of
> his own dreams?
>      Say one night you get a spirit call from Goober again to go out
> amongst the stars and play a game of backgammon.  You meet Goober out
> around Orion, and the two of you co resonate a card hall into existence
> with pretty lights, drinks, good food, waitresses, car hops and the
> rest, and you play backgammon all night in this SHARED DREAM.
>      Dawn comes, such as it is on Orion, and you both dissolve the dream
> and head for home.
>      Did this happen?
>      Does it make it more likely that it happened if you call up Goober
> on the PU phone and trade stories?
>      If the stories match exactly, does that prove with perfect
> certainty that the meeting happened?
>      If the PU is just a dream, why does it have more authority than the
> co dream you and Goober created out in the astral stars that night?
>      Does the fact that EVERYONE agrees to the PU mean that it is
> somehow a better dream to verify if you had direct spirit to spirit
> contact with someone?
>      Or worse do you consider that the only reason you would WANT to
> have any contact with anyone at all was to deal with a PU issue, as all
> other issues were not important enough to deal with?
>      Is the PU your sole source of important issues?
>      Is anything you do that is not end to end verified by a PU
> interaction simply unworthy of comment because it can't or didn't affect
> one of your PU issues?
>      Would the PU feel violated or left out if you and another
> had a spiritual transaction that had no effect on the PU whatsoever?
>      Is the only thing worth believing in, the existence of PU issues
> and importances, and the fact that something did something about them?
>      Does the PU tell you 'I am the only thing that is important, and
> all else is nothing?'
>      Does the PU say "You are made of me, and when you are gone, I will
> live on?"
>      So how then does one prove to oneself that one has an existence
> independent of the PU?
>      Does getting out of your head prove that?
>      If so, do you immediately go back into doubt again if you enter
> back into your head, or visit another head?
>      If not, why does the fact that you are in a head now, indicate to
> you that you are just a head?
>      You could say, yes but if I get out and then get back in, I would
> have the memory of having been out to give me evidence I am not a head.
>      And if you lose that memory through age or forgetfulness or
> amnesia, do you suddenly start worrying about being a head again?
>      Have you ever been out of your head?
>      Did you prove it with end to end PU verification?
>      If not does it matter?
>      It is ironic, is it not, that we would depend on PU verification to
> prove to ourselves that we are not made of the PU and that the PU in
> fact may not exist at all except as a dream, in the infinite minds of
> God units.
>      Does the fact that I 'got out of my head', visited over there in
> the PU, and came back and reported here in the PU, what I saw over there
> in the PU, make it more likely that I am not made of the PU or that the
> PU may be MY dream instead me being its dream?
>      Would the PU cry tears if you stopped defining the problems
> of your life by PU problems looking for PU solutions?
>      Homer
> - ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Homer Wilson Smith     The Paths of Lovers    Art Matrix - Lightlink
> (607) 277-0959 KC2ITF        Cross            Internet Access, Ithaca NY
>    In the Line of Duty
> Sat Feb 27 01:25:10 EST 2010
> ================ ====================
> Tue Jan 11 03:06:02 EST 2011
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